Contributor
Related Topics
Other segments from the episode on August 6, 2002
Transcript
DATE August 6, 2002 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air
Interview: Robert Rodriguez discusses his career and his latest
film, "Spy Kids 2"
BARBARA BOGAEV, host:
â¨â¨This is FRESH AIR. I'm Barbara Bogaev, in for Terry Gross.â¨â¨Robert Rodriguez made his name as a filmmaker with a string of movies soâ¨violent that one of them was banned by censors in Ireland. Who could haveâ¨predicted that the man behind the action pictures "El Mariachi," "Desperado"â¨and the mock horror films "From Dusk Till Dawn" and "The Faculty" would beâ¨where he is now, the writer, director and producer of the gentle, imaginativeâ¨family films "Spy Kids" and "Spy Kids 2: The Island of Lost Dreams," whichâ¨opens in theaters tomorrow?â¨â¨But Rodriguez's career doesn't follow any of the usual Hollywood rules. Heâ¨financed his first film, "El Mariachi," with $7,000 mainly earned by hiringâ¨himself out as a subject for medical experiments, and he's making the "Spyâ¨Kids" movies from his home studio in Austin, Texas. The "Spy Kids" are Carmenâ¨and Juni Cortez, who discover that their square parents, played by Antonioâ¨Banderas and Carla Gugino, are really ultra-hip secret agents. The kids thenâ¨become small super-spies themselves. Here they are, played by Alexa Vega andâ¨Daryl Sabara, in this scene from "Spy Kids 2." They're being briefed on theirâ¨new spy gadgets by Machete, their uncle, played by Danny Trejo.â¨â¨(Soundbite from "Spy Kids 2")â¨â¨Mr. DANNY TREJO: (As Machete): I brought you all new gadgets. Check itâ¨out--the very latest spy watch: cell phone, Internet access, satellite TV,â¨you name it. That baby'll do everything but tell you what time it is.â¨â¨DARYL SABARA: (As Juni) It doesn't tell time?â¨â¨Mr. TREJO: (As Machete) There was no more room for the clock.â¨â¨ALEXA VARGA: (As Carmen) Are you sure these are new? We can't be runningâ¨around with outdated equipment.â¨â¨Mr. TREJO: (As Machete) I'm going to give you the one gadget you shouldâ¨always carry.â¨â¨VARGA: (As Carmen) A rubber band?â¨â¨Mr. TREJO: (As Machete) It's a Machete Elastic Wonder.â¨â¨VARGA: (As Carmen) It's a rubber band.â¨â¨Mr. TREJO: (As Machete) Yeah, but it's also the world's greatest gadget, 999â¨uses.â¨â¨SABARA: (As Juni) Use number one: a stylish bracelet.â¨â¨VARGA: (As Carmen) Use number two.â¨â¨(Soundbite of rubber band snapping)â¨â¨SABARA: Ahh!â¨â¨BOGAEV: Robert Rodriguez, welcome back to FRESH AIR.â¨â¨Mr. ROBERT RODRIGUEZ (Filmmaker): It's great to be back after, I think, 10â¨years.â¨â¨BOGAEV: You know, "Spy Kids 2" has the greatest gadgets in it. There's aâ¨little personal robot that looks like a cootie bug and a huge magneticâ¨aircraft which sucks up bad guys, and I like that all-purpose silver ponytailâ¨holder, and it seemed to be kind of a metaphor for your approach to a somewhatâ¨big-budget film with a lot of special effects, that in the end, nothing beatsâ¨the simplest solutions.â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: The simplest solutions, and just sort of the low-tech in aâ¨high-tech world solutions, you know, always having to be resourceful, andâ¨creativity and imagination is always more important than technology andâ¨technique. I wanted to use those two metaphors, and really, methodology endsâ¨up becoming part of the thematic material. I really like using lower budgets,â¨and instead of having money to solve creative problems on the set, you justâ¨use your creativity, and that's what makes the movie so much more creative andâ¨more fun. And it was really essential for a movie like "Spy Kids" to feelâ¨more creative, like a finger painting, than just big and expensive, like a bigâ¨movie usually does.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Now that must have contributed to the plot line, that the Spy Kidsâ¨land on an island where no gadgets work. Even though they have the newest andâ¨the latest and the best gadgets of all, they have to end up using their headsâ¨to solve the case, and it impressed me as a comment on kids and gear andâ¨labels and how technology-dependent kids are.â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Yes, adults as well, but yeah, especially kids. My children,â¨as young as they are--I have little boys under the age of six--and they're soâ¨technologically savvy. And I live a little ways out of Austin, to where evenâ¨if a small storm comes by, all our power goes out for at least a day, and it'sâ¨always a shock to all of us how technologically dependent we are. So I reallyâ¨wanted to play with the idea of loading the kids up with all the latest,â¨coolest gadgets and then stripping that away from them midway through theâ¨movie, where they have to go on a mission where they have to use their heads,â¨and they've already forgotten how to do that. They don't even know how to tieâ¨their shoes anymore, because it used to be automatic.â¨â¨BOGAEV: So where'd the idea for a movie about child spies come from?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: I grew up in a family of 10 kids, and my parents did such anâ¨incredible job raising us and giving us these simple wisdoms and ideas thatâ¨really helped me growing into being an adult, and I put a lot of that in theâ¨movie. I really believe all that's good really starts in the home, with theâ¨family, and them spreads out from there.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Now is it true--I read somewhere that you had an uncle, Gregorio, whoâ¨was an undercover agent with the FBI?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: My Uncle Gregorio was a special agent in the FBI. That'sâ¨what it said on his badge, big heavy leather badge. He'd show us that when weâ¨were little, and I would think, `Oh, my gosh, I want to be'--you know, Iâ¨thought special agent meant secret agent, so I thought he had gadgets. And heâ¨could never tell us what he could do, because he was always top secret, so weâ¨just imagined him going on all these adventures. So I really did base theâ¨movie on my own family--my brother Juni, my sister Carmen, my grandfatherâ¨Valentin(ph)--and you know, Ricardo Montalban plays. I just made them spies.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Did you have family members working on the movies? Because you'veâ¨employed a number of people from your family and certainly your friends in aâ¨lot of your films.â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Oh, yeah. My wife of almost 14 years now has always producedâ¨my movies. She's the producer. My three little kids were stunt kids in theâ¨movie, training on wires and flying around. I tell my stunt coordinator, whoâ¨also has kids, `So you know there's only one way we're going to make sure kidsâ¨don't get hurt making this movie, is if the kids doing the stunts are our ownâ¨kids, because for sure nothing's going to happen to them.' So our ownâ¨children were doing the stunts.â¨â¨And my sisters--two of my five sisters used to torture us growing up byâ¨watching movies like "The Turning Point," and Mikhail Baryshnikov and theyâ¨were all into ballet, and so there's a ballet sequence in this movie that'sâ¨really funny. And so I called them up and said, `All those ballet lessons Iâ¨had to drive you to when you were little? They're finally paying off. Youâ¨guys are choreographing the ballet sequence.'â¨â¨BOGAEV: Payback.â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: So, yeah, my sisters choreographed it, and it came outâ¨fantastic. They've been training all their lives for this, so it's beenâ¨great.â¨â¨BOGAEV: What stunts did your kids do in the movie?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: There are some funny stunts right there at the beginning.â¨There's a big banquet scene, and there's a lot of Spy Kids and they're allâ¨doing--battling and fighting. You'll see one of my sons, he's flying aboveâ¨all the other ones on wires. You don't see the wires, but he's holding theseâ¨two little lit-up propellers. And then he also shows up a few seconds laterâ¨tackling one of the Magna Men all the way to the ground and, you know,â¨knocking him in the back. And then a little tiny little guy, my littleâ¨three-year-old, comes over, looking like a little Mafia guy because he's got aâ¨little belly poking out, he comes over and gives him a real kick in the ribs,â¨and there's a big sound effect, and he gets a huge laugh from the audience.â¨So my son gets a big kick out of that, because he's three years old and andâ¨he's coming over to put his licks in, too, because they're beating up the badâ¨guys. And so there's some, you know, good physical sort of knocking aroundâ¨that had to be done, you know, so I used my own children so that it would beâ¨safe and I would make sure that it was safe.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Well, there are a ton of visual effects in this movie...â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Yeah. There's over a thousand.â¨â¨BOGAEV: ...in both the "Spy Kids" movies. Over a th--how does that compareâ¨to other...â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Yeah, over a thousand.â¨â¨BOGAEV: ...big-budget movies like, say, "Inspector Gadget" or some of theâ¨others we saw ...(unintelligible).â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: I don't know how many are in that, but our movies cost aâ¨fraction of the cost of, say, like a "Stuart Little," which--I don't reallyâ¨know the true budget, but what I've heard is it's like $120 million. This oneâ¨cost 38, because I make it at home. I do a lot of the jobs myself, our crewâ¨is all that way also and we just use creativity instead of--I get to make myâ¨own budgets, and the studio always wants to give me--it's always the reverse.â¨The studio says, `Are you sure you don't want more money? We'll give you $60â¨million.' The money's not going to make it good. The money's not going toâ¨make it better or more creative. And the more you're limited by money and byâ¨resources, the more you're forced to be more creative.â¨â¨So I don't know if you've seen the movie, but one of the favorite scenes isâ¨when two kids walk into a room where they can't hear each other talk, but theyâ¨can hear each other think. And the audience--you hear the audience. They'reâ¨so surprised by the idea and they laugh. That idea cost $5, because itâ¨doesn't require anything but the idea. And when you don't have the money,â¨you're forced to come up with things that, you know, instead of thinking, `Howâ¨am I going to spend $100 million today?' you think, `How am I going to makeâ¨this movie good and interesting and fun for people?' And your thinking goesâ¨to a different area, and it's so fun to try to, you know, solve theseâ¨challenges creatively. And when you force yourself to be creative by limitingâ¨yourself with resources, that's when the magic really happens. That's whenâ¨you become that child who thinks he can do anything, and with a fingerâ¨painting can create work.â¨â¨BOGAEV: So do you just sit at your computer and think up some of theseâ¨creative solutions, or do you do something or go somewhere to get your head inâ¨that right place to take you back to that kind of kid-wacky creativity?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: This is the trick. I turn into `Night Guy,' because I found,â¨you know--and this happens to everybody. The way the workday works, it'sâ¨really anti-family, because you're really just starting to get cooking at yourâ¨job, whatever it is, near the end of the day. And if you stay late atâ¨work--wow, the kids are already asleep and have already had dinner and you'veâ¨missed it. I switched my schedule around completely, and it works so muchâ¨better.â¨â¨If you can be a night person, you should try this. It's really fun. What Iâ¨do is I make breakfast for the kids, because I love to cook. They go toâ¨school, I go to sleep. I wake up, I go pick them up from school, we play forâ¨a little while, maybe we'll go swimming. I'll work a little bit in theâ¨garage--I do everything at home, the editing, the sound mix, everything I doâ¨in my garage. And then I'll cook dinner for them, they go to sleep, and thenâ¨while they're asleep, I work all night.â¨â¨And because they're sleeping all night, no one calls because everyone else isâ¨gone from the office. So you have so much time to just concentrate on theâ¨work you're doing and be creative. And you're really more creative at night.â¨I think that's why musicians and other artists are night people, because theâ¨world goes to sleep and your mind is also in a semidream state, and you reallyâ¨can come up with things that you wouldn't normally think of while you're beingâ¨distracted during the day. And one full night of work equals at least fiveâ¨working regular days. I mean, you get so much done in a short amount of time.â¨That's the trick.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Were you always a night owl, or how did you come on the work-by-nightâ¨schedule?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: I was always sort of a night owl. But then once I had kids,â¨it just became the reality. I just thought there's no other way I'll be ableâ¨to spend this much time with my kids and do 12 jobs making a big movie in 10â¨months. You know, it's just a truncated time. Two movies--actually, Iâ¨thought the only way to get a movie done this quickly is to do two movies atâ¨once. So at the same time, I'm doing a sequel to "Desperado" called "Onceâ¨Upon a Time in Mexico," this big epic action adventure movie. So I kind ofâ¨switch back and forth and work on both movies at once. And it gives you a lotâ¨of objectivity in your project, because if I'm working on "Spy Kids" and thenâ¨I switch for a week over to the "Mexico" project, when I come back to "Spyâ¨Kids," I feel like I've been away from it for a year, because your mind hasâ¨done such a switch that you've got so much objectivity you can go, `Oh, now Iâ¨can see what I need to do. Oh, this works. This doesn't work. Let me fixâ¨this. Let me fix that.' It's just remarkable and fun, and I feel like theâ¨luckiest person in the world for getting to do this for a living.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Some people like to drive when they get stuck. It kind of spurs onâ¨their creativity. And you're out in Texas. Are you one of the drivers?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: I live way out in the boonies. I usually have to drive intoâ¨town to get something done in town. And I live about 25, 30 minutes out ofâ¨town, and it took me all this time to realize some of my best ideas have comeâ¨when I've just been on that Texas highway driving for quite a while before youâ¨hit the first stoplight.â¨â¨You know, when you're driving, it's kind of spooky, because you're supposed toâ¨be driving, but you end up at a stoplight, and you go, `When did I get here?â¨I don't even remember getting here. I must have been half-dreaming.' Andâ¨that half-dream state of driving that same route with no stoplights, I foundâ¨that I've gotten some of my best ideas while I'm sort of zoned out on theâ¨highway. And I call myself, because I can't sit and drive--I can't write. Soâ¨I leave a message for myself at home, and it's so fun to come home after theâ¨day's work and find all these very staticy sort of mixed messages of differentâ¨ideas or song fragments or music or some idea, and I'm trying to decipherâ¨them. And they're all really great ideas that I would have forgotten aboutâ¨that I came up with while I was half-dreaming on the road.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Can you give us an...â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: But yeah, I think some of my best ideas are there.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Can you give us an example of one of them?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: You know the song that Floop sings in the middle of theâ¨movie?â¨â¨BOGAEV: Oh, yeah.â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: I didn't know if I was going to bring him back to sing a song,â¨but I thought, `If I bring him back, kids'll want to see him sing, and there'sâ¨no time to write a song, but let's see if I can come up with one.' He showsâ¨up Friday, and it's Wednesday. And I got home one day after shooting all day,â¨and I check my message machine. And I don't even remember leaving thisâ¨message, that's what's so funny. I hear this song fragment. I was goingâ¨`Hm-hm-hm--when why--free!' And so, OK, I don't know what that is. Let me goâ¨to the piano and type it up. And because I was humming it, I found myselfâ¨playing in a section of the piano--because I'm not that good at playingâ¨piano--that I don't usually gravitate towards. And I go, `What key is this,â¨anyway?' I had to look it up--`Oh, it's in F-sharp something.' And I sangâ¨it, I put it together, I brought to Alan Cumming the morning he showed up. Heâ¨heard it. We recorded his voice there in a closet at lunchtime using a freeâ¨computer program over the Internet called Pro Tools Free. I edited hisâ¨performance together and we shot it that afternoon.â¨â¨And then you come there that weekend, you look at it and go, `When did I comeâ¨up with all of that? When did we come up with that? Suddenly, we have a songâ¨now.' And that's just what's so beautiful about the creative process is thatâ¨it really comes to you. It's not something you fabricate.â¨â¨BOGAEV: My guest is filmmaker Robert Rodriguez. He's the creative forceâ¨behind the "Spy Kids" movies. "Spy Kids 2: Island of Lost Dreams" opens thisâ¨week in theaters. Rodriguez made his first film, "El Mariachi," on a $7,000â¨budget, mostly by being a one-man crew. His other movies include "Roadâ¨Racers," "Desperado" and "From Dusk Till Dawn."â¨â¨Robert, we're going to take a break, and then we'll keep on talking.â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: OK.â¨â¨BOGAEV: This is FRESH AIR:â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨BOGAEV: Back with filmmaker Robert Rodriguez. His family movie, "Spy Kidsâ¨2," opens this week. Rodriguez' other movies include "El Mariachi,"â¨"Desperado" and "From Dusk Till Dawn."â¨â¨The screen, technically, jumps out at you in "Spy Kids", in "Spy Kids 2,"â¨especially. It really pops. And I know that you're...â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Oh, good.â¨â¨BOGAEV: ...you're using this new technology, high-definition digitalâ¨cameras...â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Yeah.â¨â¨BOGAEV: ...to film the movie. They were customized for the shoot. How so?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Well, these cameras are so incredible. You can go customizeâ¨them yourself and give it their own look. And I have to say something realâ¨quick, because people get confused. It's such a new medium that everything isâ¨called digital, whether it's mini-DVD that you shoot at home or high-def, andâ¨there's a big difference. It's almost like there's so many different types ofâ¨film. There's super-8, there's 16, there's 35, there's 70mm. The medium youâ¨have at home, the little mini-DVD, that's kind of like super-8. This HD isâ¨more like 70mm. I mean, it looks amazing. It looks better than traditionalâ¨film. It's much more colorful and feels a lot more like the old Technicolorâ¨movies I grew up watching, and I really wanted that back.â¨â¨I was really disappointed how "Spy Kids" looked on film, because I was thereâ¨on the sets, and the sets were so vibrant and so colorful, but it doesn'tâ¨translate to film. Film isn't as good as it used to be, and it just keepsâ¨getting worse because of just the technology itself. But George Lucas turnedâ¨me on to these high-def cameras, and he's always 10, 20 years ahead ofâ¨everybody, so I thought, `He's Obi-Wan. I'm following him. I'm not going toâ¨wait 10 years to figure this out. I'm going to buy two cameras, hot rod them,â¨you know, figure out how to give them a really neat look, and go shoot withâ¨them,' and it's just a revelation. I mean, you can shoot so quickly, you canâ¨be so creative, and then the finished image looks like what it was on the set,â¨very vibrant colors, especially--I like to use a lot of Latin colors, veryâ¨childlike colors, very, very poppy, and it's the look I was going for.â¨â¨BOGAEV: How does the technology, the high-def technology, change the actualâ¨way you go about shooting the scenes?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Amazingly--and we're just--because we've gotten used to it.â¨You don't realize how much you'll dislike film until something better comesâ¨along. When you're shooting a movie, you're literally shooting blind, becauseâ¨you don't see what you did till the next day when you get dailies back, whenâ¨you get to actually see the film, because you're on the set, you have a reallyâ¨bad monitor, you can't judge color, lighting, performance at all. It's almostâ¨like being a painter painting in the dark, and then you have to wait till theâ¨next day to see, `Hmm, I wonder if I used the right color? I wonder if I evenâ¨hit the canvas?' And with high definition, you're seeing the best picture onâ¨the set. What you're going to see at the premiere is actually already on theâ¨set while you're doing it.â¨â¨And that's not a luxury. It's actually a revelation, because when you'reâ¨shooting a film, you never really feel like you're getting what you want. Askâ¨any director; they'll tell you the finished movie is 40 percent to 60 percentâ¨of the vision they had--well, because they were shooting blind. Now I callâ¨this movie-making with the lights on. You can really see what you're doing.â¨You know when you've got a performance. You know when you've got it right.â¨You know when you've put the flag in the day's work, and it changes yourâ¨attitude completely. Instead of leaving the day wondering, `Did I even getâ¨it? Was I even close?' now you leave--every day's Christmas on the set,â¨because the actors come over and they look at the monitor and they go, `Oh, myâ¨God, we nailed that,' or `We could do even much better than that. Let's makeâ¨this or let's try that.' And it just elevates the art form in a wayâ¨that--when you see "Spy Kids 2," it came out much better than it has any rightâ¨to be for being a number two, because we were seeing what we were doing as weâ¨were doing it, and we really felt we were making the best movie possible.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Now when you made your first film, "El Mariachi," you made it on thisâ¨really nothing budget, $7,000.â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Right.â¨â¨BOGAEV: And half of it was money you made by hiring yourself out for medicalâ¨research. Now...â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Yeah. I was from a family of 10. I couldn't go borrow moneyâ¨from them. I had to sell my body to science. It was just such a--and thenâ¨people kept saying, `Wow, $7,000. That's so cheap.' Cheap? When you're fromâ¨a family of 10, that's, like, all the money in the world. You know, I had toâ¨be so careful. All the money just went to buying film. Film was soâ¨expensive. That's what I really love about digital is that you can lit--Iâ¨could really go make that same movie now for five bucks.â¨â¨BOGAEV: But was there a weird period early then in your career after "Elâ¨Mariachi" was such a hit and attracted attention of Columbia and otherâ¨Hollywood studios and they started to woo you? Did they just throw money atâ¨you for hotels and restaurants and expense accounts in Hollywood?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: It's not that they'd throw money, that's just really theâ¨business has built itself into. And I was from Texas, so it was reallyâ¨strange. I was very broke, but they--you know, part of the budgets that theyâ¨have--and that's why studios have a lot of overhead, is when you bring someoneâ¨who's considered a talent, you--oh, they put you in a real nice hotel. Youâ¨know, you get what's called a per diem, which is a daily expense account.â¨â¨And I was so poor and from a family of 10. I was thinking, `Wow, this is aâ¨really great hotel I'm staying in. Could I just have the money instead thatâ¨you're spending, and I'll go check into a smaller hotel? In fact, I'll goâ¨sleep in my office because it's a really nice office. It's got a shower andâ¨everything.' So they said, `Well, no one's ever asked that before.' So theyâ¨gave me the money that they would normally spend on a nice hotel. They justâ¨let me take it as a per-diem check. And I put that away, and I was able toâ¨put my brother through school and buy a new car. And I just slept in myâ¨office for a year.â¨â¨It was pretty--when you come from a family of 10, the survival instinct neverâ¨goes away. But, you know, in Hollywood, they don't think anything twice ofâ¨that. `Oh, yeah, you're coming. We'll fly you up first class. We'll put youâ¨in a nice hotel.' And I'm, like, `You know, I don't really need any of that.â¨It's really all about the work,' you know.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Now critics called "El Mariachi" a quasi-spaghetti Western. Andâ¨"Desperado" was a kind of English-language version of "El Mariachi." Andâ¨you're filming now, or you're finishing now, the third in this series ofâ¨Westerns. It's due out next year.â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.â¨â¨BOGAEV: And you also made a horror/comedy, written by and starring Quentinâ¨Tarantino called "From Dusk Till Dawn." What's the connection between theseâ¨shoot 'em up films and blood and gore and sweet, you know, G-rated "Spy Kids"â¨family films? And the only thing that's obvious to me is that they're allâ¨funny and they're all fantasies.â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: They're all funny--yeah, they're all fantasies. I'm intoâ¨fantasy filmmaking. What happened was before "Mariachi" came out, all I didâ¨was family comedies because, again, I was from such a big family. I would beâ¨at home, and I was 12 making these little action movies, and all I had aroundâ¨me were my little brothers and sisters to star in them. So I made them theâ¨action stars. And they would always win contests. So I thought, `Wow, that'sâ¨kind of a winning combination: have kids that are really younger than youâ¨would expect doing action and comedy,' and audiences of all ages loved it. Soâ¨I really thought that would be my big movie.â¨â¨And when I had to make my first film for the Spanish video market, they onlyâ¨wanted an action film, so I made "El Mariachi." But even that, I couldn'tâ¨take very seriously. So I made him a guitar player who becomes a hit man.â¨And then Columbia wanted an action movie, so I said, `Well, let's doâ¨"Desperado,"' which, again, is still kind of comical, and if you look at it,â¨is very fantastical. It's a made-up Mexico. It's guys shooting missiles outâ¨of their guitar cases. It really makes very little sense. But I had a goodâ¨time as a cartoonist making it.â¨â¨And then when they offer me "From Dusk Till Dawn," that's even a biggerâ¨cartoon of a movie. Very comical, again, a lot of gadgets and a lot of justâ¨imagination overdrive in what's supposed to be a horror movie. You know, Iâ¨knew every day, `OK, I've got to do something horrific because that's theâ¨audience,' but I couldn't help but be very kind of cartoony about it.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Well...â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: And I was really just gaining experience to do my "Spy Kids"â¨movie, because I knew that was going to be the big one. I was really justâ¨learning effects, learning how to make a movie myself in that arena so that Iâ¨could make it a very personalized movie like I had done with "Mariachi," whichâ¨really stripped down the process so that I would be free to create whatever Iâ¨wanted. And I was really just building up to do "Spy Kids."â¨â¨BOGAEV: Filmmaker Robert Rodriguez. His new family film, "Spy Kids 2," opensâ¨in theaters tomorrow. We'll continue our conversation in the second half ofâ¨the show. I'm Barbara Bogaev, and this is FRESH AIR.â¨â¨(Announcements)â¨â¨BOGAEV: Coming up, making the vampire movie "From Dusk Till Dawn," starringâ¨George Clooney in his first feature film--we continue our conversation withâ¨director Robert Rodriguez. Lloyd Schwartz reviews the new CD set "Elaineâ¨Stritch At Large," and David Bianculli reviews the E! cable channel's newâ¨reality show "The Anna Nicole Show."â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨BOGAEV: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Barbara Bogaev, and we're back with filmmakerâ¨Robert Rodriguez. His new family film, "Spy Kids 2," opens tomorrow.â¨Rodriguez's first film, the Spanish-language Western "El Mariachi," is said toâ¨be the cheapest hit feature film ever made, with a budget of just over $7,000.â¨His other films includes the first "Spy Kids," "Desperado," "The Faculty" andâ¨"From Dusk Till Dawn."â¨â¨Well, you know, I couldn't sleep one night, and I turned on the TV at about 2â¨AM. And next thing I know, I'm seeing these half-naked screaming vampireâ¨women attacking bikers. And there's green goo flying everywhere, there'sâ¨buckets of blood and people are hitting each other with lopped off body parts.â¨And I'm thinking, `Who left the TV on the X-rated Sci-Fi Channel?' And then Iâ¨realize, `Wow, isn't that George Clooney? And there's Juliette Lewis. Andâ¨there's--Harvey Keitel is in this movie. Good God, this is supposed to be aâ¨real movie.'â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: That's so funny. Quentin's biggest thrill was the fact thatâ¨he's hoping someone would watch it exactly the way you did, you know. Hisâ¨only regret was that they give that away when the movie comes out that it'sâ¨two movies in one. But he said the way someone should see it is they shouldâ¨just be watching it on cable, watching this very desperate-hours-type,â¨serious, you know, movie and then suddenly, you turn the page and it's thisâ¨wacky vampire film. And you're wondering, `What did I just drink? Whatâ¨happened? What's going on?'â¨â¨And that was actually George Clooney's first movie. He was still on "ER" atâ¨that time, and I really thought he could be a big star. And I gave him hisâ¨first, you know, big break.â¨â¨BOGAEV: So when you make that kind of horror-gore fest, do things get out ofâ¨hand? Does someone on the crew say, `Look, I can make blood spurt 20 feet, orâ¨eyeballs pop out 20 feet' so you just let 'em?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: It's kind of a fun job in a way. It's really harder to make aâ¨movie like that than something that I'm more inclined to do, like a "Spyâ¨Kids"-type movie. You still have to be creative. I mean, I'd walk on the setâ¨and, you know, I'm not a morning guy and you always have to shoot in theâ¨mornings. So I get on the set and I'm thinking, `OK, here we go. We're goingâ¨to do another day. What are we doing today?' `Oh, well, at this point in theâ¨script, it says we have to pull Tom Savini's head off and kick it around theâ¨room.' `Oh, OK. Well, that sounds like fun. Let's do that.'â¨â¨And it is kind of creative and fun in a different way 'cause you know it's forâ¨a very limited audience. It's for the horror audience. So you got to kind ofâ¨come up with, `How am I going to make a horror movie when I'm not a horrorâ¨guy?' And so it is a challenge. It is--I'm much more comfortable makingâ¨these "Spy Kids" movies. And what's funny is just because the other moviesâ¨came out first, you think it's odd that I'm making a family film when reallyâ¨everyone in my family thought it was odd I was making those other films. Soâ¨it was completely backwards. And if you actually go back and watch "Dusk Tillâ¨Dawn" and "Desperado," you really see the "Spy Kids" in all those movies.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Well, we have a clip from "From Dusk Till Dawn." And in this scene,â¨George Clooney is--he plays this biker criminal who's dragged some hostages,â¨played Juliette Lewis and Harvey Keitel, to a biker bar, which turns out to beâ¨a haven for creatures of the undead. And Clooney and everyone else are allâ¨just now coming to grips with this strange turn of events.â¨â¨(Soundbite of "From Dusk Till Dawn")â¨â¨Mr. HARVEY KEITEL: (As Jacob Fuller) Does anybody know what's going on here?â¨â¨Mr. GEORGE CLOONEY: (As Seth Gecko) I know what's going on. We've got aâ¨bunch of (censored) vampires out there trying to get in here and suck ourâ¨(censored) blood. And that's it, plain and simple. And I don't want to hearâ¨anything about, `I don't believe in vampires,' because I don't (censored)â¨believe in vampires. But I believe in my own two eyes, and what I saw isâ¨(censored) vampires. Now do we all agree that what we are dealing with isâ¨vampires?â¨â¨Ms. JULIETTE LEWIS: (As Kate Fuller) Yes.â¨â¨Mr. CLOONEY: You, too, Preacher?â¨â¨Mr. KEITEL: I don't believe in vampires, but I believe in what I saw.â¨â¨Mr. CLOONEY: Good for you. All right. Now that we all agree that we'reâ¨dealing with vampires, what do we know about vampires? Crosses hurt vampires.â¨Do we have a cross?â¨â¨Mr. KEITEL: In the motor home.â¨â¨Mr. CLOONEY: In other words, no.â¨â¨ERNEST LIU: (As Scott Fuller) Wait a second. I mean, just look around. Weâ¨got crosses all over the place. All you got to do is put two sticks togetherâ¨and you got a cross.â¨â¨Mr. TOM SAVINI: (As Sex Machine) Yeah, he's right. Peter Cushing does thatâ¨all the time.â¨â¨Mr. CLOONEY: OK, I'll buy that. So we've got crosses covered. What else?â¨â¨Mr. FRED WILLIAMSON: (As Frost): Wooden stakes in the heart been workingâ¨good so far. And garlic, sunlight, holy water.â¨â¨Mr. SAVINI: I'm not sure. Doesn't silver have something to do with vampires?â¨â¨LIU: That's werewolves.â¨â¨Mr. SAVINI: I know silver bullets are werewolves, but I'm sure silver hasâ¨something to do with vampires.â¨â¨Ms. LEWIS: Well, does anybody have any silver? OK. Then who cares?â¨â¨Mr. KEITEL: Has anybody here read a real book about vampires, or are we justâ¨remembering what some movie said? I mean, a real book.â¨â¨Mr. SAVINI: You mean like a Time-Life book?â¨â¨Mr. KEITEL: I take it the answer's no.â¨â¨BOGAEV: A clip from my guest Robert Rodriguez's 1996 mock horror-road movieâ¨"From Dusk Till Dawn."â¨â¨So how did you even get away with making a movie that was literally two moviesâ¨in one, first, this very serious, dark, "Pulp Fiction"-like road movie, whichâ¨turns into a vampire fest?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: That's the great thing about Hollywood is that nobody wantedâ¨to make this movie. Quentin had written--this was one of the first scriptsâ¨Quentin wrote. And everyone said, `Oh, my God, it's two movies in one. Itâ¨makes absolutely no sense. You'll never get this movie made.' And then heâ¨made "Pulp Fiction," and suddenly everyone wanted to make this movie. Thereâ¨was a huge bidding war for it because they go, `Oh, my God, it's great. It'sâ¨two movies in one.' Suddenly, its disadvantage became its advantage.â¨â¨And it gave us creative freedom to do whatever we wanted because Quentin and Iâ¨both--we make movies very inexpensively, and that's the trick. If you'reâ¨given a chance to make your movie, it would make the most sense to try to getâ¨as much money as you can from the studio to make the best movie, right?â¨Wrong. The more money you get, the more they're all over you questioning yourâ¨every decision. You almost, like, become the painter who keeps getting theâ¨paint brush pulled out of his hand and they say, `Use red, not yellow,' youâ¨know. `Why?' `I don't know, because you're spending so much money we want toâ¨make sure you do it right,' and then it becomes wrong.â¨â¨So our trick has always been use very little money, be very creative and thenâ¨you have the creative freedom to do whatever you want. So that's why I'veâ¨always kept my budgets lower so I can make a family film without having toâ¨have people question your move. And the studios support that because if youâ¨make the movie inexpensively, no matter what, it'll be profitable. "Dusk Tillâ¨Dawn" was very profitable 'cause it cost us $10 million, but we had theâ¨freedom to just do something that could become a cult movie.â¨â¨BOGAEV: I'm talking with filmmaker Robert Rodriguez. His movie "Spy Kids 2"â¨opens this week. Rodriguez's other movies include "El Mariachi," "Desperado"â¨and "From Dusk Till Dawn."â¨â¨So you made a lot of pretty violent movies early in your career, for oneâ¨reason or another, and now you've been doing the "Spy Kids" movies. Are youâ¨concerned about the level of violence that you see in films and TV moviesâ¨meant for children?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: You know, I don't think they're ever really meant forâ¨children. When I made those movies I, you know, naively just thought, `Well,â¨this is an R-rated movie. That means kids aren't going to see it,' and theyâ¨shouldn't see it. And I had so many parents come up to me and say, `Oh, myâ¨kid loves your movie "Desperado."' And--`Oh, well, that's really cool. Iâ¨liked action movies when I was younger. How old is your kid?' And they go,â¨`Six.' I go, `Oh, well, he's really not supposed to be seeing that.'â¨â¨So it made me want to make "Spy Kids" even more because I think--I know whyâ¨they like the movie. They like it because it's got action, it's gotâ¨adventure, but it wasn't made for them. So I really wanted to make a movieâ¨that had all those things, but that any child could watch and an adult couldâ¨watch. And I found that challenge much more enticing and much more fun: toâ¨broaden the audience.â¨â¨I really wanted the movie to be rated G, because I love the idea of `generalâ¨audience' picture, meaning anyone, anywhere can pick it up, watch it and findâ¨something entertaining. It's much more challenging to do. And when you'reâ¨challenged creatively, you can come up with better solutions. So I kind ofâ¨like working in that area now because it brings out the best in my creativityâ¨and I don't have to worry about someone--you know, you don't feel like youâ¨want to have to play parent to someone else's kid, but in a way, especially inâ¨a family movie, if you're going to get into a child's dreams, you really haveâ¨the responsibility to put something wholesome in there because they're goingâ¨to watch the movie over and over again. So I have to take that on as aâ¨responsibility now.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Can we talk about toy tie-ins? I know that the last "Spy Kids"â¨movie--McDonald's picked it up, right?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Yes, that was a really great thing for us, because there'sâ¨been a lot of really good children's films that didn't do well because theyâ¨didn't have--there's so much competition out there. If people don't know yourâ¨movie exists, they don't go see it because they think, `Oh, it must be a badâ¨movie,' for some reason, because no one's supporting it commercially. And Iâ¨knew it was important since my movie was not a remake of an old T--that's whyâ¨there are so many remakes of old TV shows or old cartoons or other movies,â¨because the studio needs to have that title recognition so an audience hasâ¨heard of it before and then they're more inclined to go see it in a worldâ¨that's so competitive.â¨â¨What I needed was a tie-in because "Spy Kids"--no one had heard of "Spy Kids."â¨So I thought if we could get tied in to a McDonald's--which would be theâ¨biggest thing of all--suddenly it makes it feel like a bigger movie, becauseâ¨22 million people walk into a McDonald's every day. In the four weeks they'reâ¨showing your product, your toys or whatever, that's something, like, 600â¨million people who've been exposed to it. So it's--for a low-budget movieâ¨like I had, it was the way to get people thinking, `This is a big movie.' Andâ¨I think that's why we opened up to, like, $30 million the first weekend evenâ¨though no one had known what "Spy Kids" was, because people thought, `Oh, thisâ¨must be a big family movie for all kinds of families. Lets go check it out.'â¨â¨BOGAEV: I'm curious what kind of toys you buy for your boys and whether theyâ¨have guns?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: No guns in the house at all. I don't even like water pistols.â¨I don't--I'd like for them to get that idea--and it's such a strange thingâ¨because we all grew up playing cowboys and Indians and this. You don't thinkâ¨about it. It's very innocent play. But I guess as you get older, you justâ¨get more conscientious about that. And also--and there's just so many betterâ¨ways to be creative. We play shark. They sit up on the couch and they playâ¨music from "Jaws" and I hunt them down. I say, `You can't move. If you move,â¨I can smell that you're moving and I can attack you,' and they just love thatâ¨game.â¨â¨We play hide-and-go seek. We play all the old--we play this game that theyâ¨love called mystery tour, where I wrap them in a blanket and I carry themâ¨around the room. They have to imagine where they're being dropped off. Andâ¨I'll drop them off, like, in the bathtub or in a closet facing the wrong wallâ¨or something. And that little bit of disorientation, they think that's moreâ¨fun than anything in the world. And as they get heavier, it gets harder and Iâ¨have to keep thinking of new places to drop them off. But it's a lot--I mean,â¨I just--I'm a big kid, you know. I've been doing this 34 years. I'm aâ¨professional child. So I think of some really fun games for us to play. So,â¨yeah, there's no guns. And the play that we do is always that of empowermentâ¨and creativity.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Well, Robert Rodriguez, it was really fun talking to you today onâ¨FRESH AIR.â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Thank you so much. It's been great to come.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Robert Rodriguez's new film, "Spy Kids 2: Island of Lost Dreams"â¨opens tomorrow. The third installment in his series which began with "Elâ¨Mariachi" and continued with "Desperado" is due out next year. It's calledâ¨"Once Upon a Time in Mexico."â¨â¨Coming up, "Elaine Stritch At Large." This is FRESH AIR.â¨â¨* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *â¨â¨Review: New two-CD set "Elaine Stritch At Large"â¨BARBARA BOGAEV, host:â¨â¨Elaine Stritch has been a Broadway legend for more than 50 years. This pastâ¨Broadway season, she had a much admired one-person show called "Elaine Stritchâ¨At Large." Now DRG has released a two-CD set of a live performance of herâ¨show. Our classical music critic Lloyd Schwartz has a review.â¨â¨(Soundbite of "Elaine Stritch At Large")â¨â¨Ms. ELAINE STRITCH (Actress): (Singing) There's no people like show people.â¨They smile when they are low. Good for them. Even with a turkey that youâ¨know will fold, you may be stranded out in the cold, still you wouldn't tradeâ¨it for a sack of gold. (Laughs)â¨â¨(Soundbite of audience laughing)â¨â¨Ms. STRITCH: Try me.â¨â¨(Soundbite of audience laughing)â¨â¨Ms. STRITCH: Do you have it with you? No, maybe you left it in the cab. Didâ¨Did you maybe leave it in the cab? (Singing) If they think they told you, youâ¨will not go far. That night you opened and there you are. Next day on yourâ¨dressing room they've hung a star--(Speaking) There's good news and there'sâ¨bad news. The good news: I have got a sensational acceptance speech for aâ¨Tony. Bad news: I've had it for 45 years.â¨â¨(Soundbite of audience laughing)â¨â¨LLOYD SCHWARTZ reporting:â¨â¨The good news: Elaine Stritch finally won her Tony Award for her one-womanâ¨show. The bad news was that CBS cut her off in the middle of her sensationalâ¨acceptance speech. It was a classic Elaine Stritch moment, which her show isâ¨full of. Could anyone have had a tougher time or tell a better anecdote aboutâ¨it? Like her breathless story about understudying the indefatigable Ethelâ¨Merman in Irving Berlin's "Call Me Madam" in New York while she was racingâ¨back and forth to New Haven to do a show-stopping number in a revival ofâ¨Rodgers and Hart's "Pal Joey." Like the painfully ironic story about her loveâ¨affair with Ben Gazzara and not marrying him because, in her own words, `sheâ¨flipped over Rock Hudson.' `And,' she says, `we all know what a bum decisionâ¨that turned out to be.' And like all the stories she tells about her heavyâ¨drinking.â¨â¨There are good, gossipy stories involving Marlon Brando, Richard Burton, Noelâ¨Coward and Ethel Merman, complete with imitations. And a charming story aboutâ¨how she got to do one song in the review "Angel in the Wings." This is theâ¨hit song she introduced in 1947.â¨â¨(Soundbite of "Elaine Stritch At Large")â¨â¨Ms. STRITCH: (Singing) Each morning, a missionary advertised with neon signs.â¨He tells the native population that civilization is fine, and re-educate theâ¨savages is to holler from a bongo tree. That civilization is the thing for meâ¨to see. Bongo, bongo, bongo, I don't want to leave the Congo. Oh, no, no,â¨no, no, no. Bingo, bango, bongo, I so happy in the jungle. I refuse to go.â¨Don't want no bright lights, false teeth, doorbells, landlords. I make itâ¨clear that no matter how the folks speak, I stay right here.â¨â¨SCHWARTZ: Stritch's one-woman show is brilliantly constructed by John Lahr,â¨and reconstructed by Stritch herself. Lahr is The New Yorker's theaterâ¨critic. He's the son of the great Bert Lahr, the Cowardly Lion in "The Wizardâ¨of Oz," so he's no slouch when it comes to showbiz savvy. I like the way theâ¨verses of the songs become the pegs for her stories.â¨â¨I've been a fan of Elaine Stritch since I saw her in the original cast ofâ¨"Company" in 1970. Blowsy, cynical, she put across with lacerating ironyâ¨Steven Sondheim's great anthem to New York society women, the "Ladies Whoâ¨Lunch." There's an engrossing documentary about recording the original castâ¨album of "Company." On the first take, Stritch sings the "Ladies Who Lunch"â¨with the almost improvisatory inspiration that I remember from when I saw theâ¨show. But Sondheim and the producers want a version that's closer to what'sâ¨strictly in the score; something more for the ages than for the moment. Theyâ¨asked Stritch to do it again and again.â¨â¨She's exhausted, strung out, in despair. Finally, they close up shop in theâ¨wee hours of the morning without a satisfactory take. The version on the castâ¨album was made several days later. It's wonderful, but not as exciting asâ¨that first take. So now 32 years later, in her own show, Stritch does whatâ¨she calls Steven Sondheim's three-act play her own way, and it's great.â¨â¨(Soundbite of "Elaine Stritch At Large")â¨â¨Ms. STRITCH: (Singing) And here's to the girls who just watch. Aren't theyâ¨the best? When they get depressed, it's a bottle of scotch plus a littleâ¨jest. Another chance to disapprove, another brilliant zinger. Another reasonâ¨not to move, another vodka stinger. I'll drink to that! So here's to theâ¨girls on the go everybody tries. Look into their eyes and you'll see whatâ¨they know, everybody dies. A toast to that invincible bunch, the dinosaursâ¨surviving the crunch. Let's hear it for the ladies who lunch, everybody rise,â¨rise, rise, rise, rise, rise, rise, rise, rise, rise, rise!â¨â¨(Soundbite of audience applause)â¨â¨SCHWARTZ: Stritch is, in fact, a very good singer. Her whiskey growl isâ¨always on pitch just as her stories find the right emotional pitch. And herâ¨sense of rhythm is both playful and impeccable. I didn't see the show, butâ¨even on this album, Stritch comes through as a lively and loveableâ¨personality; raucous, hilarious, deeply touching and completely honest.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Lloyd Schwartz is classical music editor of The Boston Phoenix. Heâ¨reviewed the original cast album of "Elaine Stritch At Liberty."â¨â¨Coming up, the new reality TV offering "The Anna Nicole Show." This is FRESHâ¨AIR.â¨â¨(Soundbite of "Elaine Stritch At Large"; music and audience laughter)â¨â¨Ms. STRITCH: (Singing) It's the little things you do together, do together,â¨do together that make perfect relationships. Hobbies you pursue together,â¨savings you accrue together, looks you misconstrue together that make marriageâ¨a joy. Mm-hmm.â¨â¨First reading of "Company" in New York. `A semicircle of 14 classy actors allâ¨gathered together to sing and say practically anything and everything to doâ¨with life, love and the musical marital pursuit of happiness down in theâ¨lounge of the Shubert Theatre.'â¨â¨(Singing) It's the little things you share together, swear together, wearâ¨together that make perfect relationships. The concerts you enjoy together,â¨neighbors you annoy together, children you destroy together that keep marriageâ¨intact.â¨â¨Off to Boston to open and fear set in. This was big time again and I wasâ¨scared. Aside from all the grueling physical, mental and emotional energyâ¨that Michael Bennett in particular demanded from all of us, I must haveâ¨further exhausted myself trying to find somebody to stay up with me at nightâ¨after the show. Well, there's a little Judy Garland in all of us. Judyâ¨Garland. She said to me one night--it was our closing night at The Palace--aâ¨big party, big celebration. And Judy Garland and I were still at it at 8:00â¨in the morning. When she rose to her full height in that orange sequinedâ¨sheath with the slit up the side--it was her comeback dress, I called it--sheâ¨loved that. And she put out her hand and she said, (Imitating Judy Garland)â¨`Elaine, I never thought I'd say this, but goodnight.'â¨â¨(Soundbite of applause and laughter; music)â¨â¨Ms. STRITCH: Back to Boston, Fritz Hall(ph), "Company" manager, the bestâ¨ever...â¨â¨BOGAEV: Coming up, the new reality TV offering "The Anna Nicole Show." Thisâ¨is FRESH AIR.â¨â¨* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *â¨â¨Review: Reality TV series "The Anna Nicole Show"â¨BARBARA BOGAEV, host:â¨â¨The success of the MTV reality series "The Osbournes" earlier this year was soâ¨unexpected and so substantial that almost every network is desperate for anâ¨"Osbournes"-type show of its own. TV critic David Bianculli says they have noâ¨idea how to duplicate that series, but that won't stop them from trying.â¨â¨DAVID BIANCULLI reporting:â¨â¨It's been two days since the premiere of "The Anna Nicole Show" on the E!â¨cable channel and I still haven't gotten over the experience. Watching it, itâ¨turns out, is like being sprayed by a skunk. No matter what you do, the stinkâ¨stays with you for days.â¨â¨It's not the only smelly show on TV these days either. Even NBC, a once proudâ¨network that still offers such excellent shows as "The West Wing" andâ¨"Friends," has turned itself into a carnival midway this summer. "Meet Myâ¨Folks," an ultratacky dating competition in which parents pimp out theirâ¨daughters to three drooling competing bachelors, has joined the same network'sâ¨equally repugnant "Fear Factor" and "Spy TV."â¨â¨The real smell in the air, though, is desperation. The whole thing is aboutâ¨money and pleasing advertisers. On commercial TV, it always has been andâ¨always will be. But the equation is different now. When there were onlyâ¨three or four broadcast networks, even the losers had a big enough piece ofâ¨the pie to make oodles of profit, and dramas and comedies were cheap enough toâ¨produce to keep cranking them out. As long as the networks delivered so manyâ¨viewers to the advertisers, everybody was happy.â¨â¨But now two different forces have upset the status quo. Advertisers now careâ¨so much about demographics and reaching younger viewers that they won't pay asâ¨much for shows with only mass appeal. And with successful dramas and comediesâ¨costing so much to produce, networks are clearing hour after hour ofâ¨prime time for shows that cost less to make. No matter how much money wasâ¨given away on "Who Wants to be a Millionaire," that show still cost nothingâ¨compared to "ER." It's no wonder ABC ran "Millionaire" into the ground. Itâ¨was runaway greed, pure and simple.â¨â¨And runaway greed is exactly what is driving these copycat "Osbourne" showsâ¨and all these "Survivor" clones. "The Osbournes" worked for the same reasonâ¨the first "Survivor" did: there was nothing like it on TV, it felt fresh andâ¨unpredictable and it was fun to watch. So many young people watched "Theâ¨Osbournes" each week that few other programs, on cable or broadcast TV, couldâ¨match it. And it was cheaper to make an entire season of "The Osbournes" thanâ¨one episode of, say, "The Drew Carey Show."â¨â¨But what happens if a network executive cares only about getting young viewersâ¨to watch and doing it as cheaply as possible? What happens is "Fear Factor"â¨and "Meet My Folks." And what happens most of all is "The Anna Nicole Show."â¨Here's a show in which the central focus--Anna Nicole Smith--is a woman famousâ¨for being famous. A former stripper who married a very old billionaire,â¨became a Playboy Playmate and continues to contest his will hoping to inheritâ¨a settlement of more than $80 million. In the meantime, she's surrounded byâ¨an assistant, a poodle, a camera-shy son--good for him--and a personalâ¨attorney who not only advised her to do this show, but who appears as aâ¨co-star. He's the kind of guy who gives lawyers a bad name.â¨â¨"The Anna Nicole Show" isn't laughing with her; it's laughing at her. She'sâ¨photographed in the most unflattering clothing and positions and situations,â¨all of which may be unavoidable. Half the time, her voice is so slurred itâ¨almost needs subtitles, and she admits to being steadily medicated. Evenâ¨looking for a house to rent, as she does in the premiere episode, becomes aâ¨Fellini-esque experience, but without the artistry.â¨â¨Instead, we have a dog named Sugar Pie who's afraid of the backyard view ofâ¨one house in the hills, and Anna's female personal assistance trying toâ¨translate her employer's actions and desires into English, and a climb intoâ¨the car with such an entourage of hangers-ons, puppies and cameramen thatâ¨Anna's lawyer repeats a curious remark from some neighborhood kids allâ¨packaged by E! into a mind-numbing TV sequence.â¨â¨(Soundbite of "The Anna Nicole Show")â¨â¨Ms. ANNA NICOLE SMITH (Former Model): Oh, there's no pool. Whoa, Sugar Pie!â¨â¨Unidentified Man #1: ...(Unintelligible).â¨â¨Unidentified Man #2: Sugar Pie, stay.â¨â¨Ms. SMITH: This is kind of scary for Sugar Pie.â¨â¨Unidentified Woman: The thing with Anna--she knows what she likes. And ifâ¨she doesn't like something, she's going to tell you. This is not it. She'sâ¨not going to settle for a house--move into a house that she's not happy with.â¨â¨Ms. SMITH: Not this time.â¨â¨Unidentified Man #1: ...(Unintelligible) is huge and you have a nice view.â¨â¨Ms. SMITH: This one's too small.â¨â¨(Soundbite of car door shutting; car buzzer)â¨â¨Ms. SMITH: Want me to drive?â¨â¨Unidentified Man #3: Why don't you sit on the other side? I'll teach you howâ¨to drive.â¨â¨Ms. SMITH: No, show me. I have to learn.â¨â¨Unidentified Man #2: Hey, some kids just pulled up and asked if this was aâ¨porno.â¨â¨Ms. SMITH: Yeah, I'm doing a porno movie. And I've got--let me see--I'mâ¨doing three--two girls and--one, two, three, four, five--six guys. I'm doingâ¨a porno with seven guys and two girls and a dog.â¨â¨Unidentified Man #2: Let's not forget the car.â¨â¨Unidentified Man #3: Oh, oh, that's not fair.â¨â¨Ms. SMITH: Some porno. Whoo-hoo!â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨Unidentified Group of Singers: (Singing) Anna, Anna, fabulous Anna, Annaâ¨Nicole. You're so outrageous.â¨â¨BIANCULLI: The way this show is packaged Anna Nicole Smith isn't outrageous;â¨she's pathetic. And so is this bottom-of-the-barrel piece of TV trash noâ¨matter how many young eyeballs it brings to the tube. "The Anna Nicole Show"â¨doesn't need viewers; it needs an intervention.â¨â¨BOGAEV: David Bianculli is TV critic for The New York Daily News.â¨â¨(Credits)â¨â¨BOGAEV: For Terry Gross, I'm Barbara Bogaev.â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *â¨â¨Interview: Robert Rodriguez discusses his career and his latestâ¨film, "Spy Kids 2"â¨BARBARA BOGAEV, host:â¨â¨This is FRESH AIR. I'm Barbara Bogaev, in for Terry Gross.â¨â¨Robert Rodriguez made his name as a filmmaker with a string of movies soâ¨violent that one of them was banned by censors in Ireland. Who could haveâ¨predicted that the man behind the action pictures "El Mariachi," "Desperado"â¨and the mock horror films "From Dusk Till Dawn" and "The Faculty" would beâ¨where he is now, the writer, director and producer of the gentle, imaginativeâ¨family films "Spy Kids" and "Spy Kids 2: The Island of Lost Dreams," whichâ¨opens in theaters tomorrow?â¨â¨But Rodriguez's career doesn't follow any of the usual Hollywood rules. Heâ¨financed his first film, "El Mariachi," with $7,000 mainly earned by hiringâ¨himself out as a subject for medical experiments, and he's making the "Spyâ¨Kids" movies from his home studio in Austin, Texas. The "Spy Kids" are Carmenâ¨and Juni Cortez, who discover that their square parents, played by Antonioâ¨Banderas and Carla Gugino, are really ultra-hip secret agents. The kids thenâ¨become small super-spies themselves. Here they are, played by Alexa Vega andâ¨Daryl Sabara, in this scene from "Spy Kids 2." They're being briefed on theirâ¨new spy gadgets by Machete, their uncle, played by Danny Trejo.â¨â¨(Soundbite from "Spy Kids 2")â¨â¨Mr. DANNY TREJO: (As Machete): I brought you all new gadgets. Check itâ¨out--the very latest spy watch: cell phone, Internet access, satellite TV,â¨you name it. That baby'll do everything but tell you what time it is.â¨â¨DARYL SABARA: (As Juni) It doesn't tell time?â¨â¨Mr. TREJO: (As Machete) There was no more room for the clock.â¨â¨ALEXA VARGA: (As Carmen) Are you sure these are new? We can't be runningâ¨around with outdated equipment.â¨â¨Mr. TREJO: (As Machete) I'm going to give you the one gadget you shouldâ¨always carry.â¨â¨VARGA: (As Carmen) A rubber band?â¨â¨Mr. TREJO: (As Machete) It's a Machete Elastic Wonder.â¨â¨VARGA: (As Carmen) It's a rubber band.â¨â¨Mr. TREJO: (As Machete) Yeah, but it's also the world's greatest gadget, 999â¨uses.â¨â¨SABARA: (As Juni) Use number one: a stylish bracelet.â¨â¨VARGA: (As Carmen) Use number two.â¨â¨(Soundbite of rubber band snapping)â¨â¨SABARA: Ahh!â¨â¨BOGAEV: Robert Rodriguez, welcome back to FRESH AIR.â¨â¨Mr. ROBERT RODRIGUEZ (Filmmaker): It's great to be back after, I think, 10â¨years.â¨â¨BOGAEV: You know, "Spy Kids 2" has the greatest gadgets in it. There's aâ¨little personal robot that looks like a cootie bug and a huge magneticâ¨aircraft which sucks up bad guys, and I like that all-purpose silver ponytailâ¨holder, and it seemed to be kind of a metaphor for your approach to a somewhatâ¨big-budget film with a lot of special effects, that in the end, nothing beatsâ¨the simplest solutions.â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: The simplest solutions, and just sort of the low-tech in aâ¨high-tech world solutions, you know, always having to be resourceful, andâ¨creativity and imagination is always more important than technology andâ¨technique. I wanted to use those two metaphors, and really, methodology endsâ¨up becoming part of the thematic material. I really like using lower budgets,â¨and instead of having money to solve creative problems on the set, you justâ¨use your creativity, and that's what makes the movie so much more creative andâ¨more fun. And it was really essential for a movie like "Spy Kids" to feelâ¨more creative, like a finger painting, than just big and expensive, like a bigâ¨movie usually does.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Now that must have contributed to the plot line, that the Spy Kidsâ¨land on an island where no gadgets work. Even though they have the newest andâ¨the latest and the best gadgets of all, they have to end up using their headsâ¨to solve the case, and it impressed me as a comment on kids and gear andâ¨labels and how technology-dependent kids are.â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Yes, adults as well, but yeah, especially kids. My children,â¨as young as they are--I have little boys under the age of six--and they're soâ¨technologically savvy. And I live a little ways out of Austin, to where evenâ¨if a small storm comes by, all our power goes out for at least a day, and it'sâ¨always a shock to all of us how technologically dependent we are. So I reallyâ¨wanted to play with the idea of loading the kids up with all the latest,â¨coolest gadgets and then stripping that away from them midway through theâ¨movie, where they have to go on a mission where they have to use their heads,â¨and they've already forgotten how to do that. They don't even know how to tieâ¨their shoes anymore, because it used to be automatic.â¨â¨BOGAEV: So where'd the idea for a movie about child spies come from?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: I grew up in a family of 10 kids, and my parents did such anâ¨incredible job raising us and giving us these simple wisdoms and ideas thatâ¨really helped me growing into being an adult, and I put a lot of that in theâ¨movie. I really believe all that's good really starts in the home, with theâ¨family, and them spreads out from there.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Now is it true--I read somewhere that you had an uncle, Gregorio, whoâ¨was an undercover agent with the FBI?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: My Uncle Gregorio was a special agent in the FBI. That'sâ¨what it said on his badge, big heavy leather badge. He'd show us that when weâ¨were little, and I would think, `Oh, my gosh, I want to be'--you know, Iâ¨thought special agent meant secret agent, so I thought he had gadgets. And heâ¨could never tell us what he could do, because he was always top secret, so weâ¨just imagined him going on all these adventures. So I really did base theâ¨movie on my own family--my brother Juni, my sister Carmen, my grandfatherâ¨Valentin(ph)--and you know, Ricardo Montalban plays. I just made them spies.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Did you have family members working on the movies? Because you'veâ¨employed a number of people from your family and certainly your friends in aâ¨lot of your films.â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Oh, yeah. My wife of almost 14 years now has always producedâ¨my movies. She's the producer. My three little kids were stunt kids in theâ¨movie, training on wires and flying around. I tell my stunt coordinator, whoâ¨also has kids, `So you know there's only one way we're going to make sure kidsâ¨don't get hurt making this movie, is if the kids doing the stunts are our ownâ¨kids, because for sure nothing's going to happen to them.' So our ownâ¨children were doing the stunts.â¨â¨And my sisters--two of my five sisters used to torture us growing up byâ¨watching movies like "The Turning Point," and Mikhail Baryshnikov and theyâ¨were all into ballet, and so there's a ballet sequence in this movie that'sâ¨really funny. And so I called them up and said, `All those ballet lessons Iâ¨had to drive you to when you were little? They're finally paying off. Youâ¨guys are choreographing the ballet sequence.'â¨â¨BOGAEV: Payback.â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: So, yeah, my sisters choreographed it, and it came outâ¨fantastic. They've been training all their lives for this, so it's beenâ¨great.â¨â¨BOGAEV: What stunts did your kids do in the movie?â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: There are some funny stunts right there at the beginning.â¨There's a big banquet scene, and there's a lot of Spy Kids and they're allâ¨doing--battling and fighting. You'll see one of my sons, he's flying aboveâ¨all the other ones on wires. You don't see the wires, but he's holding theseâ¨two little lit-up propellers. And then he also shows up a few seconds laterâ¨tackling one of the Magna Men all the way to the ground and, you know,â¨knocking him in the back. And then a little tiny little guy, my littleâ¨three-year-old, comes over, looking like a little Mafia guy because he's got aâ¨little belly poking out, he comes over and gives him a real kick in the ribs,â¨and there's a big sound effect, and he gets a huge laugh from the audience.â¨So my son gets a big kick out of that, because he's three years old and andâ¨he's coming over to put his licks in, too, because they're beating up the badâ¨guys. And so there's some, you know, good physical sort of knocking aroundâ¨that had to be done, you know, so I used my own children so that it would beâ¨safe and I would make sure that it was safe.â¨â¨BOGAEV: Well, there are a ton of visual effects in this movie...â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Yeah. There's over a thousand.â¨â¨BOGAEV: ...in both the "Spy Kids" movies. Over a th--how does that compareâ¨to other...â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: Yeah, over a thousand.â¨â¨BOGAEV: ...big-budget movies like, say, "Inspector Gadget" or some of theâ¨others we saw ...(unintelligible).â¨â¨Mr. RODRIGUEZ: I don't know how many are in that, but our movies cost aâ¨fraction of the cost of, say, like a "Stuart Little," which--I don't reallyâ¨know the true budget, but what I've heard is it's like $120 million. This oneâ¨cost 38, because I make it at home. I do a lot of the jobs myself, our crewâ¨is all that way also and we just use creativity instead of--I get to make myâ¨own budgets, and the studio always wants to give me--it's always the reverse.â¨The studio says, `Are you sure you don't want more money? We'll give you $60â¨million.' The money's not going to make it good. The money's not going toâ¨make it better or more creative. And the more you're limited by money and byâ¨resources, the mor