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Other segments from the episode on May 18, 2009
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*** TRANSCRIPTION COMPANY BOUNDARY ***
..DATE:
20090518
..PGRM:
Fresh Air
..TIME:
12:00-13:00 PM
..NIEL:
N/A
..NTWK:
NPR
..SGMT:
From 'Nip/Tuck' To High School 'Glee'
TERRY GROSS, host:
This is FRESH AIR. Iâm Terry Gross.
The new Fox musical-comedy series, âGlee,â about a high-school glee
club, will have a special preview episode tomorrow night, right after
âAmerican Idolâsâ final night of competition, but the series wonât begin
until the fall.
My guest Ryan Murphy is the creator of âGlee.â He also co-created the WB
teen-comedy series âPopularâ and the FX series âNip/Tuck,â about two
cosmetic surgeons. Murphy directed the film adaptation of the Augusten
Burroughsâ book, âRunning with Scissors.â
âGleeâ is about a high-school teacher trying to put together a winning
glee club with a group of students who are largely unpopular misfits,
and with a couple of exceptions, donât appear to be particularly
talented.
Reviewing âGleeâ in Entertainment Weekly, Ken Tucker called the show:
terrific. Hereâs a scene of some students auditioning for the glee club.
(Soundbite of television program, âGleeâ)
Ms. AMBER RILEY (Actor): (As Mercedes) My name is Mercedes Jones, and
Iâm singing
(Soundbite of song, âRespectâ)
Ms. RILEY: (As Mercedes) (Singing) R-E-S-P-E-C-T, find out what it means
to me. R-E-S-P-E-C-T, take care TCB. Hey baby, yeah.
Unidentified Man #1 (Actor): (As character) Hello, Iâm (Unintelligible),
and Iâll be singing âMr. Cellophane.â
(Soundbite of song, âMr. Cellophaneâ)
Unidentified Man #1 (Actor): (As character) (Singing) Cellophane,
Mr. Cellophane, shouldâve been my name, Mr. Cellophane âcuz you can look
right through me, walk right by me, and never know Iâm there, never even
know Iâm there.
(Soundbite of song, âKissed A Girlâ)
Unidentified Woman #1 (Actor): (As character) (Unintelligible) âKissed A
Girl.â Itâs not what Iâm used to, just want to try you on. Iâm curious
for you, caught my attention. I kissed a girl, and I liked itâ¦
(Soundbite of school bell)
GROSS: Ryan Murphy, welcome to FRESH AIR. Now you know, the premise of
this show is that thereâs a teacher trying to put together a really good
show choir who can make it to the nationals and even win, even though
heâs working with this kind of like ragtag group.
Iâm not familiar with a show choir, and I assume that these exist, that
you didnât just make it up for the series, but the show choir, itâs like
a choir, and itâs a singing competition, but what they compete with is
big, like, song-and-dance production numbers. Itâs not just, you know,
people in robes standing there singing.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. RYAN MURPHY (Creator, âGleeâ): No. I mean, it was an interesting.
When I was a kid, I was in choir, but it was, you know, 16 of us in sad-
looking tuxedos and acetate dresses, singing, you know, Christmas songs.
But the world has changed since then. When we started writing this, we
would go into YouTube, and we would look at these videos of these
extravaganzas, and they are literally like Broadway-level shows.
I mean, we were working with a choir, during the pilot, from Burbank who
I think literally would spend $100,000 a year on costumes and sets in
production value. So they had, I think, one woman who was a full-time
sequin-sewer. So we sort of tap into that a little bit, but on our show,
you know, our show was about underdogs, but we have the worldâs worst
glee club, and I think the fun of the show, to me, is being able to sort
of chart these kids who have nothing going for them but heart and, you
know, natural talent, and then over the course of the series, they will
hopefully become national champions.
GROSS: So while you were going onto YouTube to look at all these show-
choir production numbers, what were some of the most unlikely songs that
you saw show choirs do?
Mr. MURPHY: I think â you know, it was very interesting about how moving
it was to me. I was not expected to be so moved by it, but I think
thereâs nothing more moving than kids singing and performing their
hearts out, just because it seems like theyâre tapping into something so
pure.
MARTIN: Thatâs why Iâll even look at, like, high-school musicals
sometimes.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MURPHY: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, itâs sweet, and you know, I remember
being that age, and when you do perform, and you are in high school, I
mean, I grew up in Indianapolis, Indiana, but I thought that I was on
Broadway. You know, you have this sort of weird misconception that the
whole world is open to you, and maybe thatâs not a misconception, maybe
itâs the truth, but I pulled from that.
That feeling is in the show, but to answer your question, the funniest
thing I saw was a boy-band tribute, where they did like a medley of 15
boy-band songs that I thought was pretty amazing, but they did it
through the prism of Western wear. So they all wore cowboy outfits, and
so it was sort of this weird smash-up of elements that you kind of canât
believe would work, but it did, and it worked because it was just so
earnest, they believed in it so much, and thatâs what I loved about it.
GROSS: So how did you go about, like, shopping for songs that you should
use, and what were some of the more unlikely ones you decided on? Iâll
name on: âI Kissed a Girlâ for the audition.
Mr. MURPHY: Right. The best part of my job is I pick all the songs, and
people ask me how I do it, and itâs just bizarre. I donât really know.
Like for instance when we were doing the pilot, there was the sort of
arch-nemesis group, the worldâs best show choir thatâs competing against
our little ragtag group of losers called Vocal Adrenaline, and theyâre
sort of like, you know, the neo-Nazis of show choir, that they train for
12 hours a day, and there really are groups like this. So itâs not too
much of a leap of faith.
But I wanted them to do something that was sort of big and ironic, and
then I was in my car, and I was listening to the Amy Winehouse album
âBack to Black,â and âRehabâ came on, and I thought well, thatâs it
because I think it would be funny for 16-year-olds to be singing about
rehab and not really knowing what theyâre singing about, put through a
prism of show choir.
So thatâs how we did that. There are other songs that, you know, I just
loved as a kid. Like you know, weâre working on a show where we do a big
finale to the Queen song âSomebody to Love.â Weâre doing our version of
âDonât Stop Believinââ by Journey. Also the show was fun in that, you
know, we try and pick songs where thereâs something for everybody.
You know, in almost every episode, weâll have a standard, weâll have a
Broadway, weâll have an R&B, weâll have a Top 40, weâll have a hip-hop.
Weâre doing country and western. So weâre trying to hit everything.
GROSS: Now one of the kids in the choir is, like, the real nerdy guy who
plays a real, like shredding guitar, but heâs in a wheelchair.
Mr. MURPHY: Yes.
GROSS: So how do you cast, like, the nerdy guy in the wheelchair? Like
what were you looking for for that character?
Mr. MURPHY: For every character. You know, I mean, I think when you do a
show like this, you need to do archetypes, but you also need to do
things that are just original, and I wanted to do a character that, from
day one, is in a wheelchair and remains in a wheelchair for the rest of
the show, and the show is really about â you know, the show choir thing
I think is a metaphor for being different and embracing your difference
and being able to express yourself no matter how hard or how much pain
youâre in.
So for instance for that character, we just read and read and read, and
the actor we cast, his name is Kevin McHale. He actually was in a boy
band and is in a boy band, and I think the name of their boy band is â I
think itâs called Not Like Us.
But heâs hilarious, and we actually had to give him what we call a make-
under because, you know, in this boy-band stuff, heâs in his tight
little T-shirts and come-hither looks, and we sort of put him in these
polyester, horror-show outfits, but thatâs how we cast that part. We
just read and read, and you know, the rule was the best performer wins
for every role, and thatâs how we cast it.
GROSS: Now in the TV series, âGlee,â there is a jock who it turns sings
really well, and heâs kind of recruited into the â enlisted into the
glee club, and heâs accused by one of his fellow jocks of joining the
homo explosion. Were you accused of being gay when you were in choir â
and you are gay â so whatâ¦?
Mr. MURPHY: I had a very strange experience with that. I mean, Iâm from
Indiana, which is a very conservative state, and I donât know what
happened to me or by what grace of God I sort of was imbued with all
this confidence, but I dealt with my sexuality at a very early age. I
was 15, and I just sort of announced it, and I was that, and I guess
because I was popular, and I hung out with popular kids, you know, one
of my best friends - and who is still one of my best friends - was the
quarterback, I kind of was embraced.
People didnât really understand me, but I projected a certain confidence
so they left me alone. I mean, certainly I got teased a little bit, but
I had a very sort of wicked tongue, and I could go right back at them.
So it didnât last very long. But looking back on it, Iâm sort of moved
by the fact that I didnât have a struggle, and I know so many people who
did have a struggle and were terrified of dealing with it, and I dealt
with it with my parents very early on.
And they, of course, were not happy about it. And they, of course, took
me to therapy. But I had a great therapist who, after two sessions,
basically called my parents in and said this is who your son is, and
this is who heâs always going to be. And you either have a choice to
love him or accept him, or he will leave you, and itâs your choice. And
they sort of said okay, and they chose accepting me, and so we never
really had much drama about it again.
GROSS: Oh, you are so lucky, especially since they were - the parents
who wanted you to change were the ones who put you into therapy and to
find a therapist who got it is kind of so lucky and amazing.
Mr. MURPHY: Yeah, you know, and I donât blame my parents about that at
all. I mean, also I was 15 and having an affair with a 22-year-old,
which was not good.
(Soundbite of laughter)
GROSS: Right.
Mr. MURPHY: When I have a child, and I will, I would not allow that to
happen, either. So I sort of look back⦠Yeah, but certainly I write
about all that, and you know, as we move to series, we have I think a
very moving storyline about a father who is coming to terms with the
fact that his child is singing and is different, and heâs a blue-collar
guy. And a friend of mine who is a great actor named Mike OâMalley plays
the father of the gay character, who works at a tire shop and just
cannot believe the fact that his son is dealing with skin care and
astringents and singing. And that is to a certain degree based on my
life a little bit, but you know, the show is â thatâs one-tenth of the
show. The show I think is so much more consuming about every aspect of
being young, not just that.
GROSS: My guest is Ryan Murphy, the creator of the new Fox series
âGlee.â Hereâs the version thatâs performed in âGleeâ by a champion show
choir.
(Soundbite of song, âRehabâ)
Unidentified People (Actors): (As characters) (Singing) They tried to
make me go to rehab, and I said no, no, no. Yes, Iâve bad, but when I
come back youâll know, know, know. I ain't got the time, and my daddy
thinks I'm fine. He's tried to make me go to rehab but I won't go, go,
go.
I'd rather be at home with Ray. I ain't got 70 days, âcuz there's
nothing, nothing you can teach me that I can't learn from Mr. Hathaway.
I didn't get a lot in class, but I know it don't come in a shot glass.
They tried to make me go to rehab, and I said no, no, noâ¦
GROSS: Weâll talk more with the creator of âGlee,â Ryan Murphy, and hear
about creating his series, âNip/Tuck,â after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(Soundbite of music)
GROSS: My guest is Ryan Murphy, the creator of the new Fox musical-
comedy series âGlee,â about a high-school glee club. A preview episode
will be shown tomorrow night after âAmerican Idol.â
Now in âGlee,â all the kids in it are in some ways losers. Like everyone
in it is in some way a loser.
Mr. MURPHY: Theyâre all losers.
GROSS: Yeah.
Mr. MURPHY: Yeah.
GROSS: And it sounds like when you were in high school, you were pretty
popular and confident. So why do you relate to losers so much?
Mr. MURPHY: Well because I was different, you know, and my friends were
different. I had two groups of people. I had a group called the clique -
there were eight of us - and then I had my other group of friends. And
the group that we called the clique were all the people who were like in
drama club or in honor society. And we were just different and unusual,
and our dreams were bigger than where we were, and we wanted to get out,
and that feeling I really understand.
And thatâs the sort of the feeling thatâs in all those characters, that
you know, that their dreams are so big that their little heads almost
canât contain them. Thatâs whatâs moving to me, and I certainly draw on
my experience when weâre writing the show in that way.
GROSS: So âGleeâ is going to have a preview, like an episode shown, on
Tuesday, May 19. So itâs like the day before the finale of âAmerican
Idol,â and the series doesnât actually start until September.
Mr. MURPHY: Yes.
GROSS: Itâs genius in a way, isnât it, to start a series about a singing
competition right after âAmerican Idol,â but who came up with the idea?
Mr. MURPHY: Well you know, even when I pitched the show to them, what I
said was Iâm not interested in having characters sort of walk down a
hallway and break into song. Iâm not interested in that. I want the
performances to be sort of rooted in performance on a stage or in
rehearsal like âAmerican Idol,â and I donât want original music. I want
to interpret songs from kids now and sort of see their versions of it.
And thatâs what âAmerican Idolâ is. Itâs sort of the great, one-hour
karaoke show, and we wanted that â that feeling is what I wanted on my
show.
So we did the pilot, and when we turned it in, we started production in
February, and they called me around in March, and they said look, we
have this idea, which is to sort of preview it after the penultimate
episode of âAmerican Idolâ this year, and what do you think? And I said
well, I donât know. That seems a little scary to me because, you know,
then the show will be off the air for three months. It doesnât make
sense to me.
But what they then said that they were going to do was, you know, they
said look at it as a marketing opportunity, and thatâs what Iâm looking
at it as, and I think itâs very smart. To me, itâs like having a movie
trailer before James Cameronâs âTitanic.â Itâs just, like, a really
great thing to do. Itâs just about sampling the show right now, because
itâs an original show. Itâs a different tone. I think people have to be
sort of educated about what theyâre watching before they watch it.
GROSS: Music rights are so expensive. Like if you want to perform a song
in a series, it can cost a fortune, especially if itâs a popular song.
So how are you handling the music rights for âGlee.â Do you have access
to the âAmerican Idolâ songbook because Fox already paid for the rights?
Mr. MURPHY: No, weâre not tied into that at all, you know. And the
interesting thing about â even when we were writing the pilot â is okay,
well letâs try and get âRehab,â and letâs try and get âDonât Stop
Believinâ,â and chances are we wonât because they donât license those
songs very often, and B, itâs too expensive. And much to my delight and
surprise, the artists said yeah, we love this idea.
So what is happening with the show is, you know, I just sort of write
what I want to write, and then we go after these big artists, and if
they say no, which they have, weâve shown them the pilot, and they can
see that their songs can be reinterpreted by kids for a different
audience, and then nine times out of 10, theyâve all said okay, we love
this idea. Letâs do it.
GROSS: My guest is Ryan Murphy, the creator of the new musical-comedy
series âGlee.â The preview episode will be shown tomorrow night on Fox,
after âAmerican Idol.â
Murphy also created the FX series âNip/Tuckâ about two successful
plastic surgeons. Hereâs a scene from this seasonâs opening episode
featuring the two surgeons, Dr. Sean McNamara, played by Dylan Walsh,
and Dr. Christian Troy, played by Julian McMahon. The prospective
patient is the anesthesiologist from their practice, Dr. Liz Cruz,
played by Roma Maffia.
(Soundbite of television program, âNip/Tuckâ)
Mr. JULIAN McMAHON (Actor): (As Dr. Christian Troy) Tell me what you
donât like about yourself.
Ms. ROMA MAFFIA (Actor): (As Dr. Liz Cruz) My back. Itâs in agony from
supporting my front.
Mr. DYLAN WALSH (Actor): (As Dr. Sean McNamara) A breast reduction? Oh,
I donât know, Liz. Those are your two best assets.
Ms. MAFFIA: (As Cruz) Theyâre like having a pair of Louis Vuitton bags.
Theyâre great to look at, but theyâre not a lot of fun to lug around.
Look, I have wanted this for a long time, and I figured what better time
than now? My boobs will be the first thing you get to put your hands on.
Mr. WALSH: (As McNamara) Thatâs very sweet of you, Liz.
Mr. McMAHON: (As Troy) Donât you worry, buddy. You wonât be scaling
those mountains alone. Thatâs a two-man job if ever Iâve seen one.
Mr. WALSH: (As McNamara) Well, you seem like a perfectly good candidate.
Iâd recommend a post reduction.
Mr. McMAHON: (As Troy) All right, fantastic. Why donât we say tomorrow?
The sooner she gets her boobs reduced, the sooner we can give her belly
button some room to breathe.
GROSS: That episode of âNip/Tuckâ began with an opening line that all
the episodes begin with - What donât you like about yourself? â a
question I suspect viewers ask and answer about themselves.
Ryan Murphy told me how he came up with that line and with the idea for
the series.
Mr. MURPHY: I was a journalist before I was a writer and a director, and
I went undercover to do an article about plastic surgery in Beverly
Hills. And I was going to write this sort of hilarious, snarky article
about calf implants for men, which had just come out, which I thought
was absolutely insane and ridiculous. And basically what that is they
look like plastic shoe horns that you shove up under the muscle in your
calf, and it gives you definition. So itâs a great way to look like you
go to the gym everyday when you donât.
But I went into this plastic surgeonâs office, and Iâm not allowed to
mention his name, and I pretended I was just there to get calf implants,
and he used that line on me - Tell me what you donât like about yourself
â which started me into a spasm of, well â and I was young at the time.
I think I was like 28, but he â by the hour-long â the end of the hour-
long consult, he had me convinced about a lot of things, and he actually
said to me in the meeting, you know, beauty is symmetry, and Iâve used
that on the show so many times.
GROSS: Yeah.
Mr. MURPHY: So the line came â I left that meeting, that consult with
the plastic surgeon, and A, I didnât write the article; and B, it sort
of threw me because he really made me feel that I would have a happier,
better life it I would just sort of work on what he deemed my physical
imperfections. But that line came from him, and Iâve used it every
episode, and it does what you said it does. The audience, I think, can
really relate to it because everybody has stood in front of a mirror and
looked at their face and thought, well, what if I do that, or what if I
fix that, and that moment came from that guy.
GROSS: Ryan Murphy will be back in the second half of the show. Heâs the
creator of the FX series âNip/Tuckâ and the new Fox musical-comedy
series âGlee,â which will have a preview episode tomorrow night right
after âAmerican Idol.â The series premieres in the fall. Hereâs the glee
club singing Journeyâs âDonât Stop Believinâ.â Iâm Terry Gross, and this
is FRESH AIR.
(Soundbite of song, âDonât Stop Believinââ)
Unidentified People (Actors): (As characters) (Singing) Just a small-
town girl, living in a lonely world. She took the midnight train going
anywhere. Just a city boy, born and raised in South Detroit. He took the
midnight train going anywhere.
I seen her in a smoky room, the smell of wine and cheap perfume. For a
smile they can share the night, it goes on and on and on and onâ¦
(Soundbite of music)
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Iâm Terry Gross back with Ryan Murphy, the
creator of the new Fox musical comedy series "Glee" about a high school
glee club. A preview episode will be shown tomorrow night after
"American Idol." Murphy also created FX series "Nip/Tuck" about two
successful plastic surgeons. Each episode of "Nip/Tuck" starts with one
of the doctors asking a perspective patient, what don't you like about
yourself? When we left off, Murphy told us he first heard that line when
he was a journalist reporting on plastic surgery.
Can I ask what you said about yourself when the surgeon said what don't
you like about yourself?
Mr. RYAN MURPHY (Creator of "Nip/Tuck" and "Glee"): I was stunned and I
didnât say anything and he took out this really bizarre measuring thing
and had me convinced that with my right ear was like a millimeter higher
than my left and that like that was throwing off my face, and that life
was all about first impressions, and even though didnât know it, if I
got my ear fixed then people would look at me differently. It was just
really this convoluted crazy thing. But he put me in touch. He wanted me
to write the article because he thought it would be good publicity and
he put me in touch with couple of his patients and then I spoke to them
and they were all just these amazingly I felt sad people who were
working on the wrong things, and that's what I felt at the end of that
session, that I was like maybe I should go to a shrink instead of a
plastic surgeon.
GROSS: And did you?
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MURPHY: But I did. But you know the funny thing about "Nip/Tuck" is
to me is it's always been a show that's completely against plastic
surgery. It is a show that basically says to the culture youâre working
on the wrong things. And I'm always amazed that somehow people think
that the show is pro plastic surgery. And indeed, I've gotten letters
and calls from people who had procedures that theyâve seen on the show
because they think that it would make them look better.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MURPHY: So apparently I didnât do my job, but...
GROSS: Well let me tell you why I find that really impossible to
believe. The procedures that you show, it's so hideous to watch and
it...
Mr. MURPHY: I know.
(Soundbite of laughter)
GROSS: ... like you're watching like rear ends split opened so that
implants could be put in.
Mr. MURPHY: Uh-huh. Yes.
GROSS: ... and you're watching lipo and itâs oh, itâs just gruesome to
watch. I'm sure every surgery, I'm sure tonsillectomies are probably
gruesome to watch and appendectomies that you need done and...
Mr. MURPHY: Mm-hmm.
GROSS: ... open-heart surgery which you need done. But nevertheless,
it's gruesome. And to sit and watch this and think how can I get one of
those?
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MURPHY: I agree with you. I...
GROSS: Really hard for me to imagine.
Mr. MURPHY: And when I pitch the show I was very adamant about that. I
wanted to show the violence of the surgeries because I said unless you
do, it's like doing a cop show where you where none of the cops ever
fired the guns. It makes no sense. And that's the thing I've battled you
know with broadcast standards and practices the most about how far can
you be realistic with what your showing you know? But to FX's credit
theyâve always let me do, and you know with the rare exception I've have
had to change any of the surgery's content because I think that they
realized that you know that that's what this show is about and we have
to show what happens in these surgeries.
But youâre right. They're horrific, and violent, and scary, and to the
point that you know we devise the show for the audience. You know a
surgery is coming when you have a Bang & Olufsen CD player, when they
open up that CD player to put that CD in because we always score those
surgeries to pop music. A lot of people say to me I know that's where I
have to either fast forward through or Iâll turn away or Iâll go into
the kitchen and get something to eat because the surgeries are pretty in
your face.
GROSS: Yes. Well you know you told us how you came up with idea of
plastic surgery as the center of a series, but you know "Nip/Tuck" is
also part crime show, part family drama.
Mr. MURPHY: Mm-hmm.
GROSS: Well how did you come up with the idea of putting all that
together into one package?
Mr. MURPHY: Well the thing with "Nip/Tuck" is - I always feel that
"Nip/Tuck" has been you know, very misunderstood. To me the show was
really sort of a look at the culture that we were living in then that is
now, I think, kind of ending, which I think it's fitting that the show
is ending after a hundred episodes. You know I created that show at the
height of the in the beginning I felt of the luxury consumer industry
where I felt that everything in our culture was incredibly Baroque and
overdone and oversaturated. So I wanted to do a show that was just about
too much excess, too much everything, too much, too many choices
available to you, too much placating. And my jumping off point for the
show actually was Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein." I thought that's what I
wanted to do. I wanted to do a show about the creation of this monster
in our culture.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MURPHY: Hopefully people have gotten the idea that we really are
satirizing the culture and that's why the show has always had so much in
it - so much crime, so much sex, so much surgery, so much money, so much
glamour, so much skin. It was always about excess.
GROSS: Now you live in the LA area where a lot of people have had
cosmetic surgery in part because itâs a, there's a lot of wealthy
communities there, and part because a lot of actors live there who are
almost like required nowadays to get plastic surgery in order to get the
parts - sadly. Can you always tell? Do you feel like...
Mr. MURPHY: I can always tell. I'm really good at that.
GROSS: What do you look for?
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MURPHY: I donât know. It's sort of like my friends have a joke with
me that I can spot you know, I can spot any amount of plastic surgery at
10 paces and I think it's just because I've watched so many operations
and I'm so familiar with the surgeries now after doing this show for six
years. The thing that's interesting about plastic surgery in Hollywood,
I feel, is that itâs sort of on the wane. I think they're you know, I
remember when we first started to do casting for "Nip/Tuck" I would say
95 percent of the women who came through that door had breast implants.
They just did. It was sort of like you know it was the trend at the
time. And also the big overinflated, horrible lips.
But with every passing year you see less, and less, and less of that.
And, in fact, many of these actresses have had those implants and lips
taken out or underemphasized because it cost them roles. They don't look
real. They can play sort of the hot chick with a window of four years
and then you know it doesn't work anymore. And I think the culture has
turned against that look. I think that you know it used to be a sign, as
we're you know as we were writing the last episodes we're trying to sum
up well what was this era about? And I think you know plastic surgery in
its day was sort of seen as luxury item and a status symbol. But now
it's so affordable and it's so cheap and anybody can get it. You can get
it at a strip mall - that it's no longer I think like wearing the new
Chanel sweater or carrying the new Dior bag. It's sort of it's taken on
a different tacky vibe, I think. And I think that you know now plastic
surgery is not so much about the surgeries and the barbarism of the
face-lifts, it's about injectables and less radical ways to preserve
youth.
GROSS: Well you had your fun with Botox on "Nip/Tuck" too.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MURPHY: I did. I had a lot of fun with Botox over the years.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MURPHY: Different and new and unusual ways to kill people with Botox
and we sort of did it all.
GROSS: My guest is Ryan Murphy, the creator of the FX series "Nip/Tuck"
and the new Fox musical comedy series "Glee." We'll talk more after our
break.
This is FRESH AIR.
(Soundbite of music)
GROSS: My guest is Ryan Murphy. He created the FX series "Nip/Tuck" and
the new Fox musical comedy series "Glee."
Now you covered Hollywood for the Miami Herald (unintelligible)...
Mr. MURPHY: A lot of places the Washington Post, Miami Herald, Daily
News. Yes. LA Times.
GROSS: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you covered Hollywood before actually becoming
a part of it in the sense of like creating television shows.
Mr. MURPHY: Mm-hmm.
GROSS: When you were just like covering it and you were writing about
you know new shows, and you know, the lives of famous actors and stuff,
did you think I really want to be a part of that, or did you think oh I
could do that or I could do better than that? Like what was your
relationship to Hollywood as a journalist and did you want to get deeper
into it?
Mr. MURPHY: I did. I mean I always wanted to do that. I couldn't really
afford to go to film school even though I was accepted. But I always, in
the back of my mind, thought well I'll get out there somehow. I don't
know how and how it happened was I was transferred to LA at a very young
age. I was sort of like the LA bureau chief of the Miami Herald back
when newspapers had money and could afford to do things like that. And I
was going to start writing about news, but there's not a lot of news in
LA so it became about celebrities and the business of Hollywood and all
that stuff. And I had a syndicated column and it never was that I wanted
to be a part of it, I just, at one point I think what happened was I had
interviewed Cher for the fifth time and I as like okay, you got to do
something else.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MURPHY: Even though I love her, I canât keep writing about her. We
had joke about it. But⦠And I went and I wrote a script, and - at night
when I was done working, I would stay up every night till like three in
the morning writing. And I sold that script to Steven Spielberg and that
started my career. It just sort of happened. It was very miraculous and
- easy is the wrong word because guess that I had been preparing for
that moment all along. But I literally just sort of wrote it, sold it,
and fell into it and have never stopped working since. So it...
GROSS: What was the script?
Mr. MURPHY: It was a great script. It's never been made but itâs called
"Why Can't I be Audrey Hepburn?" That was a big romantic comedy and
Spielberg particularly to a shine to it because he directed Audrey
Hepburn in her last movie which was "Always," so he had a great
relationship with her. And it was just about what she means as a
metaphor in terms of romantic comedy to so many people and this sort of
this paragon of style that so many girls at a particular age always aim
to emulate.
GROSS: If you're just joining us my guest is Ryan Murphy. He's the
creator of the FX series "Nip/Tuck" and the new Fox series "Glee" which
is about a high school glee club or a show choir. And that new series
has a preview right after the next to the last episode of "American
Idol" on Tuesday, May 19th.
So your parents were religious; they were church people. Did that make
it harder for them when you came out?
Mr. MURPHY: Probably. Yes. I think you know we were Catholic and that
was a you know, the things you donât want to do when you're a Catholic
person is talk about abortion or gay rights. So yes, I think it probably
was more difficult for them. And I went to Catholic school as well.
GROSS: Well so how did you deal with Catholic school and with going to
church. I mean you had been in the church choir. Once you were out like
could you stay in Catholic school?
Mr. MURPHY: I only went to Catholic school when I was in you know first
through eighth grade. But I was just a weird kid. I mean I really, I
lived in a weird fantasy land and I was obsessed with you know movies
and TV shows and books and anything to sort of get me out of there and I
got through Catholic school because I became obsessed with the idea that
I could be the Pope.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MURPHY: I was very...
GROSS: You got to be kidding.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MURPHY: No, I was - I wanted to be Pope. It was like - and so in
first grade I announced to family that I really wanted to be Pope and I
was very confused about how do you be the pope. And so my mother would
tell me that you became the pope by not committing any sins, so I would
sort of begin my day every morning with a prayer, please don't let me
sin. And, of course, by the time I got off the bus I would've committed
three and I was like well this day's ruined. I'll start again tomorrow.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MURPHY: But I would practice with my staff and I had this outfit of
robes. I would pretend to, I mean I was really into it for very very
many years, and then slowly it dawned on me that I would not be able to
go through a day committing no sin, and chances were that I wasn't going
to be the pope. So I had to come up with another dream because I wasn't
interested in just a priest. I wanted to aim really, really high.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MURPHY: But that was my childhood.
GROSS: Outside of being like the top guy, why did you want to be pope?
Mr. MURPHY: I was also obsessed with a book about the saints and I
thought it would really cool to be the pope because then you could
decide who would get to be saints. And I was very interested in that
process of sort of sitting people down or investigating them and
figuring out what if what they had done made them worthy of that. I
don't know I was just very drawn to it. I think itâs the same - there's
no difference to me in my head about the little six year-old kid who was
obsessed with âFunny Girlâ and who wanted to be the pope. It's the same
thing. You just wanted a way out. You wanted a way to express yourself
and just sort of not staying in Indiana and be an insurance salesman or
a farmer. And they both were so grand and bigger than life, I was just
drawn to that. And I was actually encouraged by my friends and family to
keep doing it.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MURPHY: So I did. I was just a weird little kid. I liked weird
little things.
GROSS: So since you had at one point wanted to be pope, when you came
out...
(Soundbite of laughter)
GROSS: ... and you were kind of persona-non-grada...
Mr. MURPHY: Doesn't it sound ridiculous?
GROSS: Well...
Mr. MURPHY: That you wanted to be the pope but did. It's sad. I did.
GROSS: Yes whatever you know. But so when you came out and making your
little kind of officially persona-non-grada in he Catholic church, did
it hurt to be rejected by the church or were you already done with the
church by then?
Mr. MURPHY: I was already kind of done with the church in an early age,
but I'm very very glad that had that religious upbringing because you
know it really taught me about storytelling and it really taught me
about theatricality. I mean you know the Easter services and the idea of
people being raised from the dead and curing leprosy and the, you know,
the stations of the cross and all that stuff I was really drawn to and I
realize now that I was probably drawn to it because it was just about a
way to tell a story.
And so, I feel like I was very well served by that. And I still go to
church, you know, even though the church is not very embracing. As a
whole, I think if you look at individual archdiocese, you see that, you
know, many of the priests and the nuns and the people who work at the
church are so, I do go to church. I go to church, you know, here in Los
Angeles and I have always been embraced in the church. The different
kind of churches that I go to seem to have a sort of large gay
contingency and no one says anything. So, I just think that itâs a
different world than it was. I donât think anything is black or white
anymore.
GROSS: As the creator of âGlee,â which is a musical and a music
competitionâ¦
(Soundbite of laughter)
GROSS: â¦about music competitions, I have to ask to you if you could get
up on stage now and sing any one song, what would you choose?
Mr. MURPHY: Thatâs a good one. It would probably have to be âDonât Rain
on My Paradeâ because I remember that was the first movie I ever saw and
âFunny Girl.â And I practiced that one a lot with a kitchen spoon in
front of the mirrorâ¦
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MURPHY: â¦so I would probably give that one a try.
GROSS: Well, I wish I could see it.
(Soundbite of laughter)
GROSS: Ryan Murphy, thanks so much for talking with us.
Mr. MURPHY: Thank you.
GROSS: Ryan Murphy created the new musical comedy series âGlee.â Fox
will show a preview episode tomorrow night after âAmerican Idol.â
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Trident And The San Francisco Rock Scene
TERRY GROSS, host:
The rise of the San Francisco rock scene in the mid-1960s is a well
known story, but one which might have taken an entirely different
direction. Before the Jefferson Airplane and Grateful Dead rose to
stardom, Frank Werber of Trident Productions was trying to get his own
stable of artists together. Ed Ward looks at what might have been.
(Soundbite of song)
Unidentified Man: (Singing) Whatâs going on? What makes me think that I
see where Iâve been wrong? How I come I feel that Iâve been down too
long? Oh, someone tell me please, whatâs going on. Why am I seeing
things inside my head?
ED WARD: Frank Werber was in a great place in 1964. A Holocaust survivor
who'd worked his way up the show business ladder, he'd gotten a million
dollars when the Kingston Trio, the act he'd groomed and developed since
they were frat boys at Menlo College south of San Francisco, signed to
Decca Records. He invested in real estate, including a turn-of-the-
century skyscraper, eight stories was skyscraping when it was built,
called the Columbus Towers and installed San Francisco's best recording
studio in its basement.
Next he needed talent. And John Stewart of the Kingston Trio told him
about a group called the Ridgerunners in Los Angeles that his brother
Michael was playing in. Stewart took them into his studio as the Michael
Stewart Quintet, and sent Werber the tapes. Here the next logical step
passed the Kingston Trio. Folk harmonies with a light electric overlay.
Werber moved the band north, rehearsed them at his house, and took them
into Columbus Recorders as fast as he could because he heard hit.
(Soundbite of song, âYou Were On My Mindâ)
WE FIVE (Band): (Singing) When I woke up this morning, you were on my
mind. And you were on my mind. I got troubles, oh. I got worries, oh. I
got wounds to bind. So I went to the corner just to ease my pains. Just
to ease my pains. I got troubles, oh.
WARD: With the astounding voice of Bev Bivens up front, the band, re-
christened We Five, was soon signed to A&M Records in Los Angeles, which
so far had mostly put out stuff by its co-founder Herb Alpert. It shot
into the top ten in the summer of 1965 and vied with the Byrdâs âMr.
Tambourine Manâ for the title of the first folk rock record. Werber was
probably happy to know that he still had ears for a hit, and soon he was
signing and recording more bands. In 1966, Werber had signed a deal with
Verve, which up to then had mostly been a jazz label, and several
interesting records resulted. Perhaps the most famous is the lost
masterpiece by Blackburn & Snow âStranger In A Strange Land.â
(Soundbite of song, âStranger In A Strange Landâ)
BLACKBURN & SNOW (Band): (Singing) I am a stranger in a strange land.
Traveling through (unintelligible) what love I can. The love I find
becomes part of the lie. Well, my love, I (unintelligible).
WARD: If this record had come out in early 1966, when it was recorded,
and when interest in Robert Heinleinâs book was peaking among proto-
hippies, it might well have been a hit. But as sort of a symptom of the
problem which would soon destroy Trident, Werber sat on the record for a
full year, killing its chances and Blackburn & Snowâs career. The other
band which might well have made it out of the Trident fold was the
Justice League. They recorded numerous times but nothing was ever
released.
(Soundbite of song, âLove Me Not Tomorrowâ)
JUSTICE LEAGUE (Band): (Singing) Thereâs a (unintelligible) I couldnât
cry when I was young. I was sheltered by my dreams (unintelligible) in
the sun. But Iâm asking you, please donât go away and say it with me
like you never say, and love me not tomorrow. Love me as a child of
sorrow. Love me not tomorrow, but today. Ohâ¦
WARD: The lyrics arenât so hot. With better production, âLove Me Not
Tomorrow,â would have fit in with what was happening on the radio in
1966. The band changed its name to West, put out two albums which went
nowhere and disbanded. But two Trident acts were eventually to make
waves on the greater San Francisco scene. The Sons of Champlin were
famous for their energetic shows and Bill Champlinâs great voice.
(Soundbite of song, âSing Me A Rainbowâ)
Mr. BILL CHAMPLIN (Singer): (Singing) Never get tired. I want so much to
have a good time. Doo-doo-roo-doo. Just try to forget that that girl
will never be mine. Never be mine. Sing me a breeze. Sing me a sky. Sing
me a rainbow but donât play (unintelligible).
WARD: And then there was the Mystery Trend, whose name came from leader
Ron Nagleâs mishearing a Dylan lyric. They were older. Why, Nagle was
going bald. And their songs were too literate for Top 40 Radio.
(Soundbite of song, âJohnny Was A Good Boyâ)
MYSTERY TREND (Band): (Singing) (Unintelligible) All his neighbors say
Johnny was a good boy, did what he should, boy. He just wouldnât act
that way.
WARD: But by the time Verve was ready to make something of its deal with
Trident in 1967, Werber was losing interest. Heâd already passed on the
Mamas and Papas, and both the Jefferson Airplane and the Charlatans, two
of the leading groups in town, because he couldnât deal with their lack
of showmanship as he understood it. That same instinct saw him pushing
more Broadway material on We Five, whose second album, for reasons that
are still not clear, was delayed by a year, sapping the band of
momentum. They broke up that May.
In 1967, when he could have been one of the most important players in
American popular music, Frank Werber folded Trident Productions to
concentrate on his real estate, his boat and his restaurant in
Sausalito, also known as the Trident. In 1968, Werber was busted for 268
pounds of pot and went to prison for six months. Much of his real estate
wound up in the hands of Francis Ford Coppola, whose empire was
administered out of the Columbus Towers. And the Trident restaurant was
a fixture for many years on Sausalitoâs waterfront and had the
distinction of being possibly the only restaurant ever robbed by
Frogman. Frank Werber died in 2007.
GROSS: Ed Ward lives in the south of France. There is a two-CD anthology
of Trident productions called, âSing Me A Rainbowâ on the Big Beat
label. You can download Podcasts of our show on our Web site,
freshair.npr.org. Iâm Terry Gross.
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Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.