Paul Motian: The 'Fresh Air' Interview

DATE March 13, 2006 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: Drummer Paul Motian talks about how he started playing
drums, playing with other musicians and his new CD "Garden of
Eden"
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

My guest is the drummer, Paul Motian. "History has shaken him out as one of
the greatest drummers in all of jazz," wrote Ben Ratliff in The New York
Times. Will Friedwald wrote in the New York Sun, quote, "Mr. Motian made
history at the Vanguard in 1961 as the drummer with the Bill Evans Trio, whose
live album at that already legendary Seventh Avenue basement defined a dynasty
of piano players. Mr. Motian then helped two other outstanding pianists,
Paul Bley and Keith Jarrett, put their trios on the map. Lots of drummers are
about power and energy. Mr. Motian is about supporting a soloist," unquote.

Motian leads a trio that also features guitarist Bill Frisell and saxophonist,
Joe Lovano, as well as the unit known as the Paul Motian Band. Motian will
turn 75 on March 25th. Let's start with a track from the Paul Motian Band's
latest CD, "Garden of Eden," which features two saxophonists and three
guitarists. This is a Paul Motian composition called "Mesmer."

(Soundbite from Paul Motian's "Mesmer")

GROSS: That's "Mesmer," a composition by my guest Paul Motian, from his new
CD "Garden of Eden."

Paul Motian, welcome to FRESH AIR.

Mr. PAUL MOTIAN: OK. Thank you.

GROSS: How important are drum solos to you?

Mr. MOTIAN: Not very important.

GROSS: Why--why not? Because so often for the drummer like, that's the
showpiece, and that's where they get to really like...

Mr. MOTIAN: I'm not a showpiece drummer. I'm not a drum--I'm not--I don't
know. I listened to an interview recently with Kenny Clark, and he said the
same thing that I feel. He wasn't into solos that much either. And I'm not
either. I just--I feel like I just--I'm an accompanist. It's my sort of
thing to make the other people sound good, as good as they can be. I feel
like I should accompany them, and I should accompany the sound that I am
hearing and make it the best that I can--that I can do.

GROSS: Do you feel that you've sat through a lot of boring drum solos over
the years?

Mr. MOTIAN: No. But, I mean, there were drummers that played great drum
solos. Chick Webb, for instance, great drum solos. Buddy Rich played great
drum solos. So did Gene Cooper. So did Shelly Men. A lot of drummers played
them, but I--I just don't--I don't know. I'm just not into it.

GROSS: Well, I want to play another track from your new CD, "Garden of Eden,"
and this is "Evidence," which is a Thelonious Monk composition. And before we
hear it, I want to say you played with Monk very briefly early in your career.

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah, I did. And also that track that you are going to play is
going to be a drum solo, which I just said I don't like to do.

GROSS: Right. Well...

Mr. MOTIAN: But that's fine. That's great.

GROSS: ...this is the exception that proves the rule, isn't it?

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah. OK. Yeah, I did play with Monk a little bit. I was
lucky.

GROSS: So what--what, if anything, do you feel like you learned from playing
with Monk?

Mr. MOTIAN: I learned how to listen because when I played with him I really
wasn't that familiar with the music--with his music. It was back in
the--one--the first time was in the mid-60s, and the reason I got to play with
him was because I went to hear him play. It was in a club in the Village here
in New York. And the drummer was supposed to be Arthur Taylor. And he wasn't
there, he didn't show up, and the promoter of the concert was a man named Bob
Risener. He had seen me around town playing drums. He say, `Paul, Arthur
Taylor didn't show up, man. If you want to go home and get your drums you can
play with Monk.' So, I ran home, got my drums, came back and played with Monk
that night. And Thelonious paid me $10. I was thrilled to death. But I
didn't know the music that well, so I just, you know, gritted my teeth and did
the best I could.

The next time I played with him was in 1960 in Boston. I played for a week.
But I really didn't know that music. So you say what did I learn? I learned
how to really listen and try to do my best to keep the time, to not get lost,
to do the best that I could and to really listen to the music and try to learn
from it.

GROSS: Did he give you any advice?

Mr. MOTIAN: No.

GROSS: No suggestions of what he wanted from you?

Mr. MOTIAN: No. He didn't say much. One time I did say--we came off--came
off the stage after one of the songs--one of the sets. I said to Thelonious,
I said, `Gee, you know. I'm sorry. I think maybe I might have--I might have
rushed the tempo on one of those tunes.' He said to me, `If I hit you upside
your head, you won't rush.' So I paid attention to that. I was very careful
after that.

GROSS: OK.

Mr. MOTIAN: No, he didn't say much.

GROSS: Well, this--this is...

Mr. MOTIAN: One time he did get up and dance when we were playing so I
thought that I did OK.

GROSS: Did he dance like an--like a--spinning around?

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah. Yeah, you know, like how you've--I'm sure you have seen
him do that...

GROSS: And...

Mr. MOTIAN: ...most people have seen him do it.

GROSS: Yeah. Yeah.

Mr. MOTIAN: So that meant--to me that meant that the music was happening, he
was enjoying it, and I was doing OK. That made me feel good.

GROSS: OK. This is the Monk composition, "Evidence," on Paul Motian's new CD
which is called "Garden of Eden."

(Soundbite from Paul Motian's "Evidence")

GROSS: That is drummer Paul Motian from his new CD "Garden of Eden," and that
is Thelonious Monk's composition, "Evidence."

Let me ask you about your formative years. When you were young--I guess this
is maybe when you were in your teens, you studied--that you studied with Billy
Gladstone who was the Radio City Music Hall percussionist.

Mr. MOTIAN: Well, yeah.

GROSS: How old were you? Teens?

Mr. MOTIAN: No, it was later.

GROSS: Twenties?

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah. Probably 20s.

GROSS: So--what--I read that he was famous, but what was he famous for? What
was his thing?

Mr. MOTIAN: He had a system of playing where he used his fingers almost more
or as much as he used his arms and his wrist and his hands. He could do
amazing things. Just hardly--I mean if you watched him play, you'd think that
he was hardly moving. Just playing with his fingers. I mean, controlling the
drumsticks with his fingers and playing incredible stuff, like really strong,
powerful strokes. I mean, he was something else. He had that system, he had
developed it. I mean, it was pretty hard to--for others to adapt to that
system. Shelly Manne studied with him, too. He was sort of--copped that
style but it was hard. I mean, the principle was that if you are bouncing a
ball and the closer you get to the floor with the ball, the less you are
moving your hand. And that was the principle of his thing, with using his
fingers.

GROSS: So did you learn how to do that?

Mr. MOTIAN: I tried. But I never could do it as well as he.

GROSS: Now, did he play it like a show-biz type of drumming?

Mr. MOTIAN: Sure. I mean, he was the drummer at Radio City Music Hall for,
I don't know, lots of years, maybe 10, 15, 20 years or so. I heard that
people used to go just to watch him. He was so amazing.

GROSS: My guest is drummer Paul Motian. His band's new CD is called "Garden
of Eden." We'll talk more after our break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

GROSS: My guest is drummer Paul Motian. His band's new CD is called "Garden
of Eden." Pretty early in your career, you played with the pianist Bill Evans,
and I think it--you played with him in various groups and various settings.
How did you first get to meet him?

Mr. MOTIAN: I met Bill--I guess it was pretty soon after I got out of the
service, the military service. He was in the Army around the same time I was
in the Navy, and I guess it was around mid-50s, and I used to go to the Union
Hall here in New York looking for a gig. Looking for just, you know, to hear
what's going on, if there were any gigs around, jobs, looking for work. And I
overheard someone say that the clarinet player, Jerry Wold, was having
auditions. And he was putting a band together to take on tour. So I found
out where it was, and I went to the audition, and there was Bill Evans who
also went to the audition. And I heard him play, and I really liked what I
was hearing. I got to audition. Bill got to audition. We both got the gig,
and that's how I met him. That's the first time I met him. We got the gig,
and we went on tour with Jerry Wald. We played around New England, we went
to--played at an Army base in Puerto Rico. I can't remember how long that
tour was. It probably wasn't too long. That's how I met Bill. That's when I
met Bill.

GROSS: So after meeting Evans at an audition and playing with him in various
settings, you and Evans and the late--now late bass player, Scott LaFaro, had
a trio that became quite famous and quite important. It was a band that was
very kind of quiet and subtle and famous for having three musicians play as
equals or having a lot of interplay between them that wasn't just a pianist
with two accompanists. Was that something that you actually talked about?
Did you talk about having that approach? Having a trio of equals?

Mr. MOTIAN: No.

GROSS: That's how it was seen.

Mr. MOTIAN: No. It's true. That's what happened. We didn't talk about it
but that's what the result was, was us playing like that. And nobody played
like that before. I think we were probably the first, or one of the first
groups, to do something like that. Before that, it was always like, you know,
the--the pianist with bass and drum accompaniment. And that just happened
that way. I think it was because of the three of us. The three individual
players who played the way we played, and when we played, that was the result.
That's what happened. We didn't talk about it that much. We really didn't.

GROSS: Because the band was quiet and subtle and played a lot of ballads, did
it limit what you could play as a drummer?

Mr. MOTIAN: I never thought of it as a quiet setting. You know, maybe that
is the way people conceive it now who listen to it...

GROSS: Well, there are so many ballads like on the Vanguard sessions. There
are so...

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah.

GROSS: ...many ballads on it.

Mr. MOTIAN: That's true. That's true. Someone told me recently that a
record company--I don't know what record company by now--but that all that
stuff from the Vanguard was released in a boxed set...

GROSS: Exactly.

Mr. MOTIAN: ...exactly the way we played it with all the outtakes and
there's even one take where we stop playing and you hear people talking and
all that. I wonder what's on that. I've never heard it.

GROSS: Well, I have it right in front of me.

Mr. MOTIAN: Oh. So--I mean, are there all ballads in that? Mostly ballads
and slow things?

GROSS: Well, it's a mix of things, but there are a lot of ballads on it: "My
Man's Gone Now," "Detour Ahead," "My Foolish Heart"...

Mr. MOTIAN: OK.

GROSS: ..."Some Other Time." So, yeah, so on a lighter note, to that boxed
set that was recently reissued of the Village Vanguard recordings from 1961
with you, Bill Evans and Scott LaFaro, the producer of the session, Orin@
Keaton, writes the liner notes, and he describes Bill Evans as having had low
self-esteem. Did you think of him that way? And he seemed to think it
affected his approach to recording and his--his discomfort of and actually
arranging a recording date. And Keaton has said that's one of the reasons he
wants to record live--one of the reasons Keaton has wanted to record "Live at
the Vanguard" is that Evans didn't feel comfortable about recording, and this
would be a way of just kind of getting it done without scheduling a separate
recording date. Kind of making him comfortable.

Mr. MOTIAN: That's kind of true, because--well, first of all, Bill was
really particular about any recording. If the result wasn't topnotch, if the
result wasn't really great and satisfying for him, he wouldn't want to put it
out. He wouldn't want to release it. I'm sure that he would be against a lot
of this stuff that is being released now--second takes, outtakes and all that
stuff. And he did sometimes think of himself as not really playing great.

I remember one time we were playing at Vanguard, and we were playing
something, and it was really good, it was moving along, and it was great. And
all of a sudden, it seemed like it took a nosedive like he just didn't feel
like playing any more. After the set, I asked him, `What happened?' I said,
`What happened?' I said, `Man, how come that happened during that tune? Like
it just kind of stopped. You didn't stop playing the tune, but it seems like
you just weren't into it any more.' He said, `Oh, I heard some people laughing
at the bar,' he said. `I thought they were laughing at me.' And another time,
he said to me, `Gee! I don't know if what I am doing is real,' he says.
`Sometimes I feel like a phony.' So he did say things like that which would
make you think that he had low self-esteem. But, no, that was really early
on. I don't know what--I didn't play with him after the mid-60s. I don't
know what he was like after that.

GROSS: At least during part of the time that you played with him, Evans was
addicted to heroin. Did that complicate your personal and musical
relationship?

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah. I quit.

GROSS: Because of that?

Mr. MOTIAN: I quit--I quit playing with him. I couldn't--I didn't--I
couldn't stand seeing him destroy himself and the music. It wasn't like that
in the beginning.

GROSS: So you still haven't changed?

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah. I quit. I left him in California. I'd kill anybody
who'd do that to me.

GROSS: That would do what to you?

Mr. MOTIAN: Leave me in the middle of a tour. Just quit and go home.
That's what I did.

GROSS: Was there something that was the last straw?

Mr. MOTIAN: The music was going downhill I was--you were saying before about
soft and all that. I mean, the music was getting there. I was playing with
brushes, and it just seemed like I couldn't play soft enough. It felt like I
was playing on a pillow. The music was just--I mean it just wasn't happening
for me, and I said, `Bill, man. This is not happening. I have to go home. I
can't do this anymore.'

GROSS: And did he....

Mr. MOTIAN: He begged me to say, you know. Because I mean, he had a tour to
do. And I think he went to New York for the first time after that. I left.
I paid my own way. I went home.

GROSS: Let me play something you recorded with Evans and Scott LaFaro. This
is from those Village Vanguard sessions, from the recent boxed set that was
released. And I thought we would hear "My Foolish Heart."

Mr. MOTIAN: Take one, I hope.

GROSS: This is the take that was released.

Mr. MOTIAN: OK.

GROSS: Do you want to say anything about this before we hear it?

Mr. MOTIAN: No. Go ahead and play it.

GROSS: OK. Here it is.

(Soundbite from "My Foolish Heart")

GROSS: "My Foolish Heart" recorded at the Village Vanguard in 1961. Bill
Evans at the piano, Scott LaFaro, bass, and my guest Paul Motian, on drum.
Shortly after this recording, Scott LaFaro died in a car accident. He skidded
into a tree and apparently died instantly. Is this the first time you lost a
musician friend so suddenly?

Mr. MOTIAN: No. I remember when Clifford Brown and Richie Powell were killed
in a car crash earlier than that. That was in the mid-50s sometime. And that
was sort of the first time that--I wasn't close to those guys, but that--but I
knew them and I heard them play live and that really--that really--that was
the first time that I sort of lost any musical friends.

GROSS: What impact did it have on you to lose these people? And to see them,
like die in a car--and let's face it, musicians are on the road all the time.

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah. I know. It was a shock. I don't know about impact, but
it was a shock.

GROSS: Paul Motian will be back in the second half of the show. His band's
new CD is called "Garden of Eden." I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

GROSS: Coming up, more with drummer, Paul Motian. And rock critic, Ken
Tucker reviews Van Morrison's new CD of country songs, "Pay the Devil."

(Announcements)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with drummer Paul Motian.

He leads the Paul Motian Band, as well as the trio that features saxophonist
Joe Lovano and guitarist Bill Frisell. The Paul Motian Band's latest CD is
called "Garden of Eden." Motian was the drummer in Bill Evans Trio from
1959-1964. When we left off, we were talking about the now historic Evans
recordings at the Village Vanguard with Motian and bass player Scott LaFaro.
LaFaro died in a car accident a couple of weeks after those recordings were
made.

Mr. MOTIAN: You know, you talk about the Village Vanguard recordings with
Bill Evans and Scott LaFaro a lot. I prefer--everyone says that's great, and
those are great. But the first record that Bill and I did with Scott was
something called "Jazz Portraits." I really like that. I think I prefer that
to the Vanguard record. And that was a studio recording. It wasn't a live
recording.

GROSS: What is your favorite track from it?

Mr. MOTIAN: I like "Witchcraft." I also like "Come Rain, Come Shine." And I
guess one of the reasons I really like it, and I thought it was really well
done, was we just finished playing for--I think it was for two weeks--at a
club called the Showplace in Greenwich Village. And we did that, and we did
that recording right after that. So we had been playing together for quite a
while, and then we went into the studio to do that recording. "Autumn Leaves"
is on there. That's a great record.

GROSS: Well, why don't we hear a track from that record?

Mr. MOTIAN: Sure.

GROSS: OK. So this is Bill Evans at the piano, Scott LaFaro, bass, and my
guest, Paul Motian, on drums.

(Soundbite from Paul Motian's "Witchcraft")

GROSS: That's "Witchcraft" with Bill Evans on piano, Scott LaFaro on bass and
my guest on drums, Paul Motian. And Paul Motian has a new CD which is called
"Garden of Eden."

When you played with Evans and when he was addicted to heroin, I could just
see how you would be--and anyone close to him--would be in a really awkward
spot. I mean, there were probably times when he was really strung out and
thought that he couldn't play without getting a fix. And so that puts you in
the position, you going to help him get it? You going to give him money he
might need? Or help drive him to his connection? And if you do--the word
"enabler" didn't exist then, but I am sure the idea did. I mean, it just
strikes me that you must be in a really awkward spot of either watching him be
unable to play or helping him do something you know was bad for him so that he
could play.

Mr. MOTIAN: No. I never did that. I never thought about helping him get
high. Never. But there were...

GROSS: You mean, that would have been out of the question?

Mr. MOTIAN: I was never--well, first of all, I was never asked. And if I
was, I would probably say, `No. Go...(censored by network)...yourself.' But
there was one time when we were playing in Washington, DC, and the bass player
at the time was Jimmy Garrison, and we were supposed to play for two weeks,
and I think we ended up playing only one night or only two nights. And one
night in particular, we were on the stage, and Jimmy and I were waiting for
Bill to start playing. Bill was just sitting at the piano, he wasn't playing.
All of sudden, he stood up, and he went to the--walking to the front of the
stage to the microphone. The place was packed. It was full of people. And
Bill said--made an announcement to the people and he said, `You know, I don't
feel like playing right now. Can you understand that?' And they all
applauded. And they were all for it. And we walked off the stage, and I
believe the reason for that is because Bill didn't have the drugs he wanted to
have.

And at the end--and then Jimmy and I said, `Well, what's happening? What's
going on?' And he said, `Well,' he said, `I want to go back to New York.' We
said, `Well, man. We're supposed to play here for two weeks.' Bill said, `I
don't care. I just want to go back to New York.' And, finally, we--after
talking to him about it and arguing back and forth, we finally got him to stay
and to finish the week. So we finished with the one week, and then we quit
and went back to New York. But that was one instance where he didn't feel
like playing because of that, because of not having drugs. But I would never
have thought, `Well, I am going to go get him some drugs so he will play.' No
way I'm going to do that. That's his life, and he can do what he wants with
it.

GROSS: You know, you said the audience applauded when he said he didn't feel
like playing.

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah. They did.

GROSS: Do you think the audience saw it as a sign that he needed a fix or
rather as a sign of his authenticity? That he played so much from the heart
that...

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah. Yeah.

GROSS: ...if he wasn't feeling that impulse, and it just wasn't going to like
measure up to his standard, then he wasn't going to play at all.

Mr. MOTIAN: Well, I think it was more like that than about his habit...

GROSS: Oh, OK.

Mr. MOTIAN: ...I don't think they knew about his habit or that they thought
about that at all.

GROSS: So, do you think it was both for him? That it was partly this, like,
need to feel the music in a way directly from the heart, but also that he
needed a fix?

Mr. MOTIAN: Well, probably. Probably. I mean, I don't know for sure.
There's no way to know for sure.

GROSS: You know, we were talking about the recording that you made with Evans
and LaFaro at the Village Vanguard and shortly after you made that recording
Scott LaFaro died in a car accident.

Mr. MOTIAN: You know, do you want to hear about a dream I had after that?

GROSS: After Scott LaFaro was killed? Sure.

Mr. MOTIAN: I was asleep, and it was the middle of the night and the phone
rings, and it was Bill Evans on the phone, and he says to me, `Scott was just
killed in a car crash.' And I say, `Oh, OK,' and I hung up and went back to
bed. And then when I woke up in the morning, I thought I had dreamed--I said,
`Gee! I think Bill called me last night.' So I called Bill again to see if it
was true and everything, and it was.

But that night I had a dream about Scott. And in the dream, we were in a room
somewhere and Scott is calling to me, and he said, `Hey, Paul, come over here.
I want to show you something. Look out the window here.' And it was amazing
about his voice. He had a really distinctive voice, and it was so clear, and
I was so sure it was him. And he wanted to show me something, and I walked
over to the window, and that was the end of the dream. But I had that dream
that same night. It's pretty amazing.

GROSS: So, when Evans first called you, you just went back to sleep.

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah. I thought--I don't know what I thought. I didn't think
it was real. I thought it was a dream or something. I just hung up and went
back to sleep.

GROSS: My guest is drummer Paul Motian. His new CD is called "Garden of
Eden." We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

GROSS: My guest is drummer Paul Motian. His new CD is called "Garden of
Eden." When we left off, we were talking about his work in the late '50s and
early '60s with the Bill Evans Trio.

Later on, you started playing with the pianist, Keith Jarrett, and you played
with him for nearly 10 years?

Mr. MOTIAN: I think so. Yeah. I met Keith, gee, it must have been--I think
it was in the late '60s and stayed with him until around 1976.

GROSS: Now you ended up buying his piano, and then you started taking piano
and composition lessons.

Mr. MOTIAN: True. How do you find out all this stuff?

GROSS: Oh, just reading up on you!

Mr. MOTIAN: Amazing. Wow! Yeah. OK. Go ahead.

GROSS: So, well, this was, I guess, in the early '70s. What made you want to
go in this direction of like learning piano and composition?

Mr. MOTIAN: Well, ECM offered me a record date. And so I thought I should
write some music and learn how to compose and to write music and put a band
together and do all those things. And I wanted to study the piano, so I could
be familiar with the piano, so it could help me with composition. That's what
happened.

GROSS: Did it help you conceptualize music once you learned more about the
keyboard? Which is such a great visual--of all the instruments, it is like
the clearest visual representation of melody and harmony. So, was that
helpful for you in thinking about writing?

Mr. MOTIAN: Sure. Yeah. I love the piano. I think it is my favorite
instrument. I don't--I don't consider myself a pianist, I'm not really good
at it. But by taking the lessons and learning a little bit, it really helped
me.

GROSS: Why don't we hear something you recorded with Jarrett in 1972. And I
think this is one of your first compositions, "Conception Vessel."

Mr. MOTIAN: True. Yeah. That's right.

GROSS: Do you want to say anything about it before we hear it?

Mr. MOTIAN: Well, the title came from acupuncture.

GROSS: Oh, really? What was the connection?

Mr. MOTIAN: Well, the conception vessel is a--it runs from the top of your
head down to between your legs.

GROSS: Is this like an energy path in the body or something?

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah.

GROSS: What were you getting acupuncture for?

Mr. MOTIAN: Let's see. What was I getting acupuncture for? I was studying
it.

GROSS: You were studying it?

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah.

GROSS: Did you stick with it?

Mr. MOTIAN: For a little while. I believe in it. I still get acupuncture
now and then. If I feel like I need some prevention or if I am not feeling
quite up to par, I'll go for an acupuncture session.

GROSS: OK. Well, why don't we hear "Conception Vessel," Paul Motian's
composition recorded with Keith Jarrett in 1972.

(Soundbite from Paul Motian's "Conception Vessel")

GROSS: Paul Motian and Keith Jarret recorded in 1972. And, by the way, that
track is featured on a fairly recent CD, on ECM, called "Paul Motian Selected
Recordings," and it is a collection of his favorite ECM recordings that he
appears on.

So, you will be celebrating your 75th birthday in March.

Mr. MOTIAN: Oh. OK.

GROSS: You knew that?

Mr. MOTIAN: Is that a celebration?

GROSS: I understand you are more or less retired from touring now?

Mr. MOTIAN: For the moment, yeah. I've had enough for a while. I just got
burnt out.

GROSS: From being on the road?

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah.

GROSS: Besides...

Mr. MOTIAN: I always tell people the story about one specific tour that was
three weeks long, and on that tour, there were 35 flights.

GROSS: Wow!

Mr. MOTIAN: And that's--that's one three-week tour. I did thousands of
tours. I started touring when I was 17 years old. I was touring with Perry@
Barelli's New England Orchestra playing--playing New England like in a big
band. I was 17 years old. So, you know, I have been doing it a long time.

GROSS: Are you working a lot, staying home in New York?

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah, I am. I am working more than ever. I am playing a lot,
recording. I am busy enough. I've got something going every month of this
whole year coming up.

GROSS: As you look back on your career to date, is there any particular
moment that you are particularly proud of?

Mr. MOTIAN: Well, I am proud of a lot of music I made with Bill Evans and
also, music with Keith Jarrett. There were some great moments there. And I
am proud of the fact that I am able to still be around and be able to write
music and get better at what I am doing. And I feel like I am still learning.
Sometimes, I feel like I am still learning. I mean, I learn stuff--one day I
was playing with some French musicians in Paris. We were playing a ballad,
and I started to think about what I was doing. And I realized that I was
playing three different tempos on the drums against another tempo that was
totally different than the other musicians were playing. When I realized I
was doing that and I tried to figure it out and as soon as I thought about it,
it started to fall apart. So I stopped thinking about it. And continued on.
And that was amazing.

GROSS: Is that the way you have to work? To like not think too hard about
anything?

Mr. MOTIAN: Yeah. I think so. I think--I mean, at this point, I have been
playing so long at this I feel like I can just let it happen and do whatever I
want, and everything will turn out OK.

GROSS: Well, one more thing. You live in an apartment in Manhattan.

Mr. MOTIAN: Right.

GROSS: So how have you managed living in a Manhattan all these years? How
have you managed to practice drum?

Mr. MOTIAN: Oh. I--you know, I don't practice drums in there so much now,
but I used to have rehearsals in there with Keith Jarrett. We used to
rehearse there, and when I was first putting bands together, I--I rehearsed
there, and I played. And one time after playing--I was playing and
practicing, I got in the elevator, and there was this huge woman in the
elevator, she must have been about seven feet tall and weighed about 300
pounds. She looked at me and said, `Is that you playing them drums?' And I
said, `Oh, man, she's going to beat me up.' And I said, `Yeah, I'm sorry.' She
said, `Oh, well, keep it up. I like it. I like it.' So that's how that went.

GROSS: So...

Mr. MOTIAN: I never had any complaints about playing drums in there.

GROSS: Well, thanks so much for talking with us.

Mr. MOTIAN: OK. You're welcome.

GROSS: The Paul Motian Band's new CD is called "Garden of Eden." Here's
another recording I want you to hear. This one is from 2002 from the album,
"Paul Motian and the EBBB Holiday for Strings." This is "Oh, What a Beautiful
Morning!"

(Soundbite from Paul Motian's "Oh, What a Beautiful Morning!")

GROSS: Coming up, Ken Tucker reviews Van Morrison's new CD with country
songs. This is FRESH AIR.

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Review: Rock critic Ken Tucker reviews Van Morrison's new album,
"Pay the Devil"
TERRY GROSS, host:

Throughout his long career, Van Morrison has created idiosyncratic music that
blends rock, R&B, blues, soul and Irish folk. In a departure for him, he
concentrates on one genre with his new album, "Pay the Devil," straightforward
country music. Rock critic Ken Tucker has a review.

(Soundbite from Van Morrison's "There Stands the Glass")

Mr. VAN MORRISON: (Singing) "There stands a glass that will ease all my
pain, that will settle my brain. It's my first one today. There stands the
glass..."

Mr. KEN TUCKER: That's Van Morrison's version of Webb Pierce's honky-tonk
hit, "There Stands the Glass." It's the lead-off cut on "Pay the Devil," and
it serves as a perfect introduction to the way Morrison approaches his
material: with a mixture of commitment and skepticism.

Half the songs he picks to cover here don't even suit his vocal attack and
persona very well. The second Webb Pierce he covers, for example, is
"Back Street Affair," a song about shame and suppressed passion. The married
narrator has to delay his happiness until the scandal of his affair dies down.

Now, when was the last time you ever thought Van Morrison would ever feel
shame for anything he did? This is a man who doesn't perform his hits in
concert if he doesn't feel like it and sometimes turns his back on the
audience or cuts the show short. He's Van Morrison, dad gummit! Yet what
comes through repeatedly on this album is that even when he is accompanied by
an almost absurd "countrypolitan" backup chorus, as he is here on "Big Blue
Diamonds," the tension between form and content yields terrific music.

(Soundbite from Van Morrison's "Big Blue Diamonds")

Mr. MORRISON: (Singing) "Blue Diamonds. Big blue diamonds on her finger.
Instead of a little band of gold, big diamonds. Big blue diamonds tell the
story of a love that no one man can know. Oh, she wanted..."

Mr. TUCKER: Van Morrison avoided the trap many another rock or pop singer
has encountered in going country. He never set foot in Nashville and
therefore never got caught up in the town's sausage factory approach to
turning out records. Instead, he stayed in Ireland and surrounded himself
with musicians like Paul Godden on steel guitar and the Welsh pianist Geraint
Watkins who's always been more honky-tonk than half the Nashville cats here at
home. Morrison has also tried his hand at writing in this genre. Put it all
together, and you get a completely convincing chunk of country lamentation,
such as the title song, "Pay the Devil."

(Soundbite from Van Morrison's "Pay the Devil")

Mr. MORRISON: (Singing) "Well, I love to see the sun setting on the
riverside. Just to go back home, I want to settle down. Well, I have to pay
the devil for my music. Why I have to keep on with this woman around. 'cause
I pay the devil..."

Mr. TUCKER: I don't think every chance Morrison takes on this album pays
off. "My Bucket's Got a Hole in It" has been tackled unevenly by everyone
from Hank Williams to Ricky Nelson, and Van's version of it sounds like he is
channeling the Beverly Hillbillies, a parody of country music. On the other
hand, he takes a Bill Anderson song, "Once a Day," a 1964 hit for Lynn
Anderson and sidles up to its tricky meter like a jazz singer, singing
slightly behind the beat, slurring lines artfully, and yowling with impeccable
control.

(Soundbite from Van Morrison's "Once a Day")

Mr. MORRISON: (Singing) "When you've found somebody new, I thought I never
would. What gets you for I thought then that I never could. But time has
taken all my pain away. Until now, I am down to hurting once a day. Once a
day, all day long, then once a night from dusk till dawn. The only time I
wish that you weren't gone is once a day, every day all day long."

Mr. TUCKER: I am guessing that what appealed to Morrison was the emotional
directness and verbal concision of these songs. Most of them from the '50s
and '60s that stands in great contrast to the often aimless drift of the music
Morrison has been writing and recording over the past decade. While it's true
that he has never put out an album that hasn't had at least one stunning
moment of cranky, eccentric brilliance, it's also true that this one, "Pay the
Devil," has the virtue of consistency. Every song sounds as though Van
Morrison had thought long and hard as he pared it down to its essence, which
is also the bedrock of great country music songwriting.

GROSS: Ken Tucker is editor at large at Entertainment Weekly. He reviewed
"Pay the Devil" by Van Morrison. I'm Terry Gross.

(Soundbite from a Van Morrison's recording)

Mr. MORRISON: (Singing) "I'm giving to my honey my soul. For giving you
more than you'll ever know. I'm giving you just about everything I can.
Can't you see I am just only one man. Took you out to the picture show. Then
I took you to walking outdoors. I walked you up and down the block. Then I
warned you, baby, this has got to stop. This has got to stop. You're way
over the top pack my things and walk. We can't even talk, this has got to
stop. I've just had enough. I'm going to call your bluff, walk you one more
lap."

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Sign-off: Fresh Air
TERRY GROSS, host:

David Mamet has teamed up with Shawn Ryan, the creator of the FX series, "The
Shield," to create the new CBS series, "The Unit," about a covert military
unit. On the next FRESH AIR, we talk with Mamet and Ryan about the new
series, and then we'll talk with Ryan about "The Shield."

I'm Terry Gross. Join us for the next FRESH AIR.
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.