Michael Gordon Discusses the War in Chechnya.

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JANUARY 20, 2000
Time: 12:00
Tran: 012001np.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Reporter Michael Gordon Discusses His Experiences Covering the War in Chechnya
Sect: News; International
Time: 12:06

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TERRY GROSS, HOST: From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with FRESH AIR.

On today's FRESH AIR, covering the war in Chechnya. Reporter Michael Gordon of "The New York Times" is one of the few Western reporters allowed into Chechnya by the Russian military. He spends most days covering the fighting. At night he stays in a house across the border in Mosdoc (ph).

We'll also call Moscow and talk with "Times" correspondent Celestine Bohlen about why Russia is now involved in a second war with Chechen rebels, trying to prevent them from breaking away and establishing an independent republic. And we'll talk about the architect of this war, the new acting president, Vladimir Putin.

That's all coming up on FRESH AIR.

First, the news.

(NEWS BREAK)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

My guest, Michael Gordon, is covering the war in Chechnya for "The New York Times." He's the paper's Moscow bureau chief and is now stationed just across the Chechen border in the Russian town Mosdoc. Most days he gets into Chechnya by a Russian military helicopter, which also escorts Russian TV crews.

"The New York Times" and the BBC are now the only news organizations accredited by the Russian military.

Chechnya was part of the Soviet Union, but Chechen rebels have been trying to establish an independent republic ever since the breakup of the Soviet Union. In 1994, the Russian military went in to establish control. But two years later, the troops pulled out, leaving the status of Chechnya ambiguous.

In August, Russia sent its military back into Chechnya. The architect of this second war is Vladimir Putin, who became Russia's acting president after Yeltsin stepped down.

Putin hopes to win the presidential election on March 26. His popularity may hinge on winning a victory in Chechnya soon.

We called Michael Gordon yesterday in the late afternoon. It was midnight his time, and he had just filed the piece that is in today's "New York Times." There's no plumbing in the house where he's staying in Mosdoc, but he does have a satellite phone, and that's how we spoke to him.

He told us he hasn't been to the Chechen capital of Grozny recently, where intense fighting is under way, because the Russian military doesn't want him to see it. I asked him where he had been earlier in the day.

MICHAEL GORDON, "NEW YORK TIMES" MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF: Today was one of those days you have when you're a correspondent trying to cover the Chechen war. Today I was at the Mosdoc military base, which is the Russian operational command center and the main base from which they bomb Grozny and Chechnya. It's just outside of Chechnya. That's what I saw. I saw the (inaudible) Mosdoc air base.

But in recent weeks, because I have been going with the Russian television crews in and out of Chechnya, I've been -- had an opportunity to get around the place. We've been to Argun (ph), which is a city that was seized by the rebels and retaken by the Russians. They brought us there to show us how secure it was, but once we got there, there were snipers all over the place. Into Dibyurik (ph), which is in the south at the beginning of the mountains, where there's a lot of fighting. I've been into Shali (ph), which is another heavily contested place.

And I spent the early part of New Year's Eve on the outskirts of Grozny back before dark at a field hospital where they were treating soldiers who were -- had been wounded inside the city.

So I've had an opportunity over the last several weeks, really, to see a good part of the fighting in Chechnya, and I've also had a chance to see how the Russian military deals with the Russian television press, and how the Russian military both helps and tries to control the Russian media.

GROSS: So what happens every day? The Russian military crew picks you up and tells you where you're going?

GORDON: Sometimes they don't tell us. Sometimes they just take us there.

GROSS: (laughs) Do you feel out of control?

GORDON: No. It's pretty professional. You know, their helicopter pilots are certainly -- like to show off all of their talents, and they zig and zag all over the skyline and fly map of the earth. Sometimes that's necessary, because they don't seem to be -- some of the Russian-controlled areas don't seem to be fully under Russian control, and they're concerned about being shot at.

No, I feel like the people I'm with are professional. But the war's a very fluid situation, and it's not the kind of conflict where there's an easily discernible kind of front, especially in the past two weeks. Areas that the Russians seized in December become battlegrounds overnight.

GROSS: Well, it sounds like the really big battle now is in Grozny, which is the capital of Chechnya. And I was reading that Lieutenant General Genady Troschev (ph), who's a Russian commander, said that there's an ecological catastrophe now in Grozny because rebels have started fires and blown up chemicals. Have you heard about this?

GORDON: Well, I heard about it, because I was there when he said it.

GROSS: Oh, uh-huh.

GORDON: But there are basically two main battle areas right now in Chechnya. There's Grozny, the capital of Chechnya, which is a rather large city, and larger than most people imagine. I sat on a hillside on that noteworthy New Year's Eve looking down on it, and it's basically to Chechnya what Los Angeles must be to California. It's a large, sprawling city. It's sort of elongated. One of the biggest cities in the North Caucasus.

And there are anywhere from 500 to several thousand militants holed up in there. And they've turned the cellars into barricades, and they've mined the streets, and they're carrying on their effective partisan defense.

There's a second battle going on in the Chechen highlands to the south, and there's a lot of fierce fighting, Russians and the rebels fight for control of the mountains. And then there's the guerrilla war. What the rebels have tried to do is reconnect their forces, the ones in the mountains and the ones in Grozny, and link them up. What the Russians are trying to do is isolate both groups and defeat them.

But the battle, as you point out, that's getting all the attention right now, and I think with -- justly so, is Grozny. And the famous Troschev remark about the ecological catastrophe was really a propaganda point he was making, trying to justify the Russian offensive on the city, which is very severe, and which is taking place despite the presence of anywhere of several thousand to 40,000 who are trapped in there.

GROSS: Have you met civilians who are trapped in the places that you've been?

GORDON: Oh, I've -- I haven't been under fire in Grozny, but I've interviewed -- yes, on a number of occasions I've interviewed civilians who've come right out of there. There's -- the Russians established two so-called humanitarian corridors. They were hoping to get the people out so they could turn the city into a free-fire zone. But most of the people were too -- many of the people in there are just too afraid to leave. They're either too old or they've been hurt or they're just too frightened.

But I did standards (ph) for several days in the edge of the northern checkpoint. I talked to people who had just gotten out, and leaving Grozny only a couple hours before, and even been shot at as they were trying to leave, they're not sure by whom. And they describe it as a hellish place. They live in cellars, basements. They have very little to eat, no medicine, maybe not drinking water. There are marauders all around. They're being shelled by their own army.

GROSS: Why are they being shelled by their own army?

GORDON: Well, the Russian military is not practiced at precision warfare. I mean, recall all the images you saw from the Kosovo conflict, which I also covered for "The Times," and the laser-guided bombs, and trying to hit targets with pinpoint accuracy with an eye towards limiting civilian causalities. Still there were mistakes, and cases where refugee columns were hit.

Russian military just doesn't operate that way. The concept of collateral damage just doesn't appear to be in their vocabulary. Their idea of a precision weapon is artillery and unguided bombs. And in the process of trying to take the war to the rebels, they're also hitting their own population.

GROSS: The Russians tried to prevent Chechnya from seceding back in 1994 to 1996. I mean, that was a long war, and the Russians ended up pulling out. Now the Russians are fighting the Chechans again, trying to prevent Chechnya from being independent. Why did the Russians go back?

GORDON: Well, there's not -- there are several reasons. One, the Chechans started it, and maybe the Russian response is disproportionate. But if you recall back in August, there was a group of militants. Not all of these people are Chechans, by the way. They work (ph) with some people from the Middle East and perhaps some mercenaries and some fundamentalists from other regions. Crashed into Dagestan, and there was a fight in Dagestan between (inaudible) militants who had left Chechnya trying to expand their territory and Russian forces that were trying to protect Dagestan from an incursion by these groups of militants.

Then there was the bombing of the apartment houses in Moscow. Nobody knows who did it, exactly, but much of Russian society's prepared to believe the militants were somehow involved. And then there was a sense among the military that they just wanted to get even for what happened the last time around, and that perhaps if they did it better this time and used twice as many forces, which is what they seem to be doing, they might come out on top.

And you add to that a sense of sort of national humiliation, and the Russians, I think, have just -- a society (inaudible) reached the point where they thought that they had suffered enough indignity and they -- and if nothing else, they were going to show that they were the master of their own home and control a piece of territory that the world agrees is legally part of the Russian Federation.

GROSS: Do you think the Russian army is using any different tactics now than it did the first time it tried to prevent Chechnya from breaking away in 1994 to '96?

GORDON: Well, they are in a certain sense. They started off by trying to avoid direct clashes with the rebels and trying to rely to a great extent on air power and artillery, trying to (inaudible) cities and villages into surrendering and avoiding street clashes. They said at the beginning (inaudible) that they wouldn't storm Grozny. But as the war's intensified, they seem to be falling into the old trap that they were in in the last war, and they seem to have got themselves involved in just bloody urban warfare, despite all their vows just a few weeks ago that they weren't going to storm Grozny.

GROSS: Yes, urban warfare, what is this urban warfare like? Maybe you could describe to us a little bit. Is there, like, house-to-house fighting, hand-to-hand fighting?

GORDON: Yes, I've talked to soldiers on the outskirts of Grozny who've been in the fighting recently, and I've talked to them in the military hospital here in Mosdoc near the base. People have been wounded in Grozny. And tactics are not that sophisticated, and many of the troops are not that experienced.

Essentially, what happens is the Russians lay down a curtain of fire. They pummel the city with artillery and now with air strikes. But when they see any sign of resistance by a sniper, they just blow up the building, regardless of who may be in and around it.

Then they send troops in to, quote, "clean the city." And these troops are not soldiers, they're interior ministry troops, because they try to maintain the fiction that they're just quelling a local disturbance and not really fighting a war against their own population.

And many of these troops I've talked to are not -- are young, they're 20, they've been conscripted, they're not volunteers, they haven't received a lot of training. And what they do is, they go, they surround the house, they go in there room to room, looking for weapons, looking for rebels. If they run up against stiff resistance, they pull back and start the process all over again, shelling the house, trying to pummel the resistance. And then they go back in.

Problem is, the rebels hide in the basement, they endure the shelling, and they just wait for the Russians to return. So the Russians have taken enormous casualties in Grozny. No one is quite sure how many, because of the peculiar system they've established for counting their own losses. But they're very sizable. And they keep -- I saw the field hospital where the wounded are being treated, and at the truckoads of fresh recruits going back to the fray.

But it seems to be a price that the army and the interior ministry is willing to pay to secure the city.

GROSS: Do you have a sense of what the morale is like in the army?

GORDON: Well, I think it varies. I think that Russians in the military do not have a very high opinion of Chechans. I think there's a strong element of racism there. And so I -- they also have been told that they're not really fighting Chechen rebels, they're really fighting bin Laden and (inaudible), talking about how they're fighting the Arabs, because there are some Islamic militants and mercenaries mixed in there.

And so I think that they basically think that the cause is right, and I think among Russian soldiers, there is a waning morale. They have a lot of respect for the Chechans and the militants as fighters. They're afraid of them at night. At certain checkpoints it's the rebels who own the night, not the Russians.

And I think some of them, if you ask, Are you going to win the war? will say yes. If you ask them, Well, will the fighting stop? Will Chechnya be secure five years from now? I think if they were honest, they would say no, that the fighting in (inaudible) in the region is going to go on indefinitely at some level.

GROSS: My guest is Michael Gordon of "The New York Times." We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: (audio interrupt) ... satellite phone is Michael Gordon, who's covering the war in Chechnya for "The New York Times."

Have you had any close calls traveling with the Russian military through Chechnya?

GORDON: Well, I don't like to think of them that way, but there have been some interesting episodes that I actually didn't, in all honesty, fully understand at the time that they occurred. There were three, which isn't that many over the span of some weeks. And I really don't think I've ever been in any serious danger. But I've been in, I would say, in three situations where nobody had control.

One was -- there's a town called Aftori (ph) (inaudible) went on a helicopter with the Russian military after -- it was on Sunday a couple weeks ago, after a rather heavy morning of social drinking, which seems to be the national sport here. And landed in this town, and they -- what happens, you jump out of a helicopter into a sea of mud. There's more mud in Chechnya, I think, than any other part of the world. If they could (inaudible) it into gold, it would be the richest country on the face of the earth.

And you clamber out of this helicopter. And then the form of road transportation is an armored personnel carrier. You jump on top of it, or climb on top of it, sit on top of it, you know, it's cold, and hang on tight. And all the soldiers, by the way, sit on top too, because if you hit a mine, it's better to be on top than inside.

And then you ride along the valleys and hills and roads until you get to some interesting place. And in this case, the interesting place was something called the White Wall. And they drove us there. And the militants were just 300, 400 meters away. They were shooting back and forth at each other. The militants were firing these trench mortars, and the Russians were firing, well, just all sorts of things, rocket-propelled grenades and machine guns.

They got us to the wall, said we could be there for five minutes -- it turned out to be two minutes -- and ran us back. So that was a situation where I would say, you know, things weren't under anybody's control exactly. But danger to the press was somewhat limited by the fact we were only there for a couple of minutes, as opposed to the soldiers, who were there for days.

And there was another occasion where -- which was interesting from a journalism perspective. There was a town called Argun, which is east of Grozny. And the rebels invaded it about 10 days ago. It was December -- January 9, actually. And they surrounded it. They drove in on trucks somehow, even though it had been seized by the Russians in early December. They killed the Russian military commandant there. He's the only commandant who's been killed. They've set up a system where commandants rule these towns. Were bombarded with artillery and fled.

So we were taken there to show that the situation is under control, so to speak, and that the Russians have taken the town back. So no sooner do we get there than a soldier yells out from the roadside, as I recall, "They tell you three die here, but many of us die here," pointing out the problems with so many official statistics.

And then we're walking down a road, and these rather Rambo-type Russian snipers and stuff say, Watch out for rebel snipers. Now, I don't know what you're supposed to do in a situation like that. You either don't go or you go. I wouldn't even know how to watch out for a sniper. By the time they're, like, a kilometer away, you don't even hear the shot, I'm told.

So nothing happened, and everyone else seemed to be more or less relaxed, but you sort of go with the flow, so to speak. It was an interesting situation in that we were brought to this town to show that the Russians controlled it, and the end result was, we came out, but they really didn't fully control it.

And that's some of the sorts of things you can learn even when you're (inaudible) by your Russian minders.

GROSS: What's it like being taken around by the Russian military? Are they trying to give you propaganda all the time as they're showing you the war?

GORDON: Well, they are more or less, at a working level, indifferent to what the Western press does. This whole operation down here, it's quite interesting, is entirely designed to influence Russian television. There are hardly any Russian print reporters here. Occasionally a reporter drifts down from "Isvestia," but you hardly see any sort of war correspondents from any of the Russian newspapers or magazines.

And so what the Russian press -- military here services is Russian television, the three main Russian television channels. One is state-owned, one's quasi-state-owned, and one's fairly independent, (inaudible) get in trouble for reporting casualties and things like that.

And this whole operation is essentially designed to put out positive reports about how the war is going for the benefit of Russian television, which is what the Russian military thinks is the most influential instrument for manipulating public opinion in Russia. And "The New York Times" and the BBC are more or less sort of along for the ride, and more tolerated, and we're not really the main focus of their propaganda effort.

GROSS: Michael Gordon of "The New York Times," speaking by satellite phone from Mosdoc. He'll be back in the second half of the show.

I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Michael Gordon, who's covering the war in Chechnya for "The New York Times."

The Russian military is trying to prevent Chechen rebels from breaking away from the Russian federation and forming an independent republic. Gordon is staying across the Chechen border in Mosdoc. Nearly every day he flies into Chechnya with the Russian military.

We called him on a satellite phone late yesterday.

How come you're going in and out of Chechnya with the Russian military, as opposed to trying to get there yourself independently and, you know, seeing whatever you can on your own?

GORDON: There are two ways of doing it. You either go in unofficially or you go in officially. Some Western journalists have gone into Chechnya without accreditation. There was (inaudible) group (inaudible) a few weeks ago. Basically, you bounce around for a few days, they detain you and kick you out. And then you have two or three days of reporting, and then you find yourself deprived of access.

I decided to try to do it officially and to try to get accreditation and to try to do it as much as possible with the Russian military. I covered the Gulf War, Panama, Kosovo, and so I had an interest in military affairs. And we tried very hard to persuade them that they ought to give us at least some very temporary accreditation. And accreditation is issued on the, you know, the basis of a week here and there or so. And we would do it (ph) official channel, so to speak.

And that's just the strategy we chose in the Moscow bureau of "The New York Times," and we tried very hard to persuade the Russian authorities to allow us to do that. But it's been quite difficult, I should have to say, even though I've recounted to you some of the more memorable incidents. What I haven't told you about is the three days that we stood around in the mud because no one would take us anywhere, or our experience the other day (inaudible) try to renew our accreditation where someone didn't want us to renew it, told us we had to go register with some local authority several hours' drive from here and then come back.

So people have thrown obstacles in our way. And today is not a bad example. Today neither we nor the BBC went anywhere while Russian television crews did manage to go somewhere. So we don't always find ourselves so welcome even with all of the appropriate documents and stamps and signatures that are required in this rather bureaucratic country.

GROSS: You think the Russians are reading your stories in "The New York Times"?

GORDON: I don't think so. I think that some official -- I -- some officials in Moscow may read them. I think that the military here doesn't read them. But I just think that they're uncomfortable, at least at some level, with the very presence of Western reporters on their military base. And it's a holdover from the cold war, but it's an attitude that's pretty deeply entrenched, and which isn't -- this does not go away very quickly.

GROSS: So I think it's around midnight your time. Where are you now? Where do you spend your nights?

GORDON: Well -- by the way, I should emphasize, I'm not alone in this. I have a (inaudible) colleague and interpreter who helps me with -- improve on my functional Russian, Victor Klemenko (ph). We have a photographer, James Hill, who's British, who also goes on these trips. We can't all go at the same time because there's not enough seats, necessary, so we kind of divvy it up. I always go, but sometimes we not always go or they take times (ph).

But we rented a small house with a woman and her son, Pavel, in Mosdoc, which is a pretty dreary place. During the Gulf War, you would go out with the American troops and then -- where there were also some constraints in what you could do, but you would return to a four-star hotel with CNN and a minibar. And Mosdoc is just a dreary military town. There's not much night life, not that I've ever had a chance to try to sample it. There are two or three acceptable restaurants. It's bizarre, but you can buy all sorts of interesting things, and shashlik and stuff.

We stay in this house, renting a room, and people are very nice and hospitable here, feed us. There's certain amenities that I'm accustomed to that they don't have here, like plumbing. But, you know, it's all part of the experience. Certainly Mosdoc may be dreary, but it has to be one of the cheapest places in the entire world. Today we went to a local cafe called Ekos (ph) and had a meal that involved two or three main courses, and three appetizers and three or four beers and salad and all of that. It was one of those days they left us standing in the mud and didn't take us anywhere.

And the bill for this feast was $6. It was 167 rubles. So that's one of the few benefits, and maybe the only benefit of spending your time in this town.

GROSS: Have you had -- have you met any Chechen refugees in Mosdoc where you're staying?

GORDON: One of the interesting things I've done here is, I've talked to some of the refugees. And I had just a heartbreaking experience talking to an old -- elderly Russian man -- he's Russian, ethnic Russian -- who was living in Grozny, had served in the Soviet army, got 13 medals, in his 70s, I believe. Probably (inaudible) Communist organization. And he's part of a small corps, they're not only Chechans who are fighting in Grozny, there are Russians too.

And he had been in his apartment in Grozny just a few weeks ago when it was hit -- missile fired by a Russian plane, and demolished his apartment and killed his wife. And he was left entirely destitute, without his wife, homeless in his last remaining years after being hit missile (ph) fired by his own military, of which he was once a member.

And there are unfortunately hundreds and thousands of stories like that. I've never seen a place with so much misery and so many people who've lost everything. And these people who hide in Grozny and don't leave, they're not fools. (inaudible) their little apartment. They don't have insurance, they're not like Americans, Oh, my house had a fire, I'll get -- the insurance will pay for it. There's nothing. They have their possessions and their little apartment. And if they leave, someone's going to steal all of it.

And so they try not to leave. It's all they have. And then things -- they -- and they're always doing this balancing act, Should I leave and lose everything I have and never get any compensation of any meaningful amount from the Russian government? Or should I stay, risk what's going to happen in Grozny when there's Russian -- my own countries' artillery in war planes bomb it and rebels run around?

And that's -- well, you run across many of these stories. And children and old people and women and innocent young men, and young men who are not so innocent who sort of fade back into the population. And so there's probably more misery per square mile on this part of the world than in many others.

GROSS: Michael Gordon is "The New York Times" Moscow bureau chief. He spoke to us from across the Chechen border in Mosdoc by satellite phone.

Coming up, we talk with the "Times" Moscow correspondent Celestine Bohlen about the politics of the war in Chechnya.

This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia
Guest: Michael Gordon
High: Michael Gordon is Moscow Bureau chief for The New York Times. He's been covering the war in Chechnya. The New York Times is one of only two Western news organizations allowed in Chechnya by the Russian military. Gordon also covered the Gulf war and the war in Kosovo, and is co-author of the book "The Generals' War" about the Gulf War.
Spec: Media; Chechnya; War; Russia

Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 2000 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 2000 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Reporter Michael Gordon Discusses His Experiences Covering the War in Chechnya

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JANUARY 20, 2000
Time: 12:00
Tran: 012002np.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Celestine Bohlen Discusses the Russian Public's Reaction to the War in Chechnya
Sect: News; International
Time: 12:30

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TERRY GROSS, PHILADELPHIA: Earlier today, we called Moscow to talk with "New York Times" correspondent Celestine Bohlen about the politics of the war in Chechnya, where Russian troops are trying to prevent Chechen rebels from breaking away from the Russian Federation and establishing an independent republic.

Vladimir Putin is the new acting president of Russia. What has his role been in this second Chechen war?

CELESTINE BOHLEN, "NEW YORK TIMES" MOSCOW CORRESPONDENT: Before he was made prime minister in August, he was head of the domestic security service. And so I think he was, you know, very much involved in whatever -- and certainly in the intelligence gathering in that area, and knew, you know, what the dangers were. And there have been recent reports that there were plans for this war to begin even before the Chechen rebels attacked Dagestan in August.

If that's true, he would have known about it and would have been involved in it. But his main role has been to be seen as the architect of this war, the man who took responsibility for action to bring order back to Russia's unruly southern regions, to put an end to a certain -- this lawlessness, this wave of banditry and kidnapping, and, you know, to look tough, to look decisive, to look energetic.

The war has given him an opportunity to look like the leader that many Russians think they want. And thus he and the war are very closely intertwined.

GROSS: Russian generals are now saying they're hoping to conclude the war by February 26. The election is exactly a month after that, the presidential election, and Putin hopes to be elected president. Do you think there's political reasons behind this announcement that they'll try to wrap up the war next month?

BOHLEN: I think definitely. They want to be able to put an end to, you know, this war that turned out to be politically convenient. I mean, it did help Putin's chances, which means that it helped the chances of the people who -- around Yeltsin who wanted to control the succession to Yeltsin. You know, and now it looks -- it looks as though it might become more unpopular, and it could happen very quickly, as the body count goes up.

But, I mean, the obvious problem, and I'm sure Michael Gordon talked about it, is how are they going to be able to declare victory in a war that's probably going to drag on as a partisan war for a long time after whatever victory they declare?

GROSS: Some of Vladimir Putin's popularity rests on the way he's waged the war so far. Now, earlier this week, he made a political alliance with the Communist Party in the Russian parliament. Tell us a little bit about this new and controversial alliance.

BOHLEN: I think that the alliance that they've made in the Duma, as the lower house of parliament here is called, is just another example of what the game of Russian politics is really all about at this point in this sort of strange, sort of eerie transitional period between the post -- from the Yeltsin period to the post-Yeltsin period. I mean, basically it is about those who have power keeping it and keeping it in ways that are not very pretty or very democratic.

I think the first thing we saw was the election campaign for the Duma elections last December, where the Kremlin and the parties close to Putin took advantage of their control of certain -- the biggest television stations in the country to flood the airwaves with positive images of Putin as sort of warrior prince of Russia, and a very negative mud-slinging campaign against his main opponents, or the party that was the main opponent to his party in the Duma elections.

Now -- this worked. His -- the parties that he had endorsed did well in those elections, and his next step was to not ensure a democratic majority in the parliament that was sympathetic to democratic ideals or of liberal economic policies, but rather a parliament or a Duma that is under his control.

What he does with that parliament is not clear, just as it's not clear what he will do with the power that he's likely to win in the presidential elections on March 26. But he seems to be collecting all the means to get the power that he would need.

GROSS: Is there any evidence that he's heading in an authoritarian direction?

BOHLEN: Well, this is the big debate. And, you know, I think it's a -- it's a reflection of how fragile things are in Russia, that, you know, that possibility is out there. He inherits a constitution that created a super-presidency, which was what Yeltsin wanted, and he comes from the structures, these -- the security services, he himself was a former KGB officer, and clearly has their trust, and he has nothing but good words to say about a security service that, to many Russians, is still regarded with fear and loathing. (inaudible) the KGB was not a friendly force in the Soviet times for many Russian citizens, who regarded them as the people that ratted on them or were watching their moves at work and school and...

And so -- you know, but he's very proud of his background, and that tells you something. At the same time, he early on in the '90s joined a democratic reformer who was elected as mayor of St. Petersburg, and seems to have used his expertise, his sort of management skills to help the city of St. Petersburg attract Western investment, and again was involved -- was part of this democratic reform movement.

So, I mean, you know, these are two sides to his career, so presumably two sides to his political philosophy. They're not quite as self-contradicting as it would seem. I mean, KGB officers were -- could often be -- were very intelligent, and very well educated. They were exposed to the West. In his case, he (inaudible) in Germany.

You know, I mean, this was not a -- this is not a sort of a Neanderthal Soviet man, this was -- these were smart, intelligent people, but who believed that -- in a certain kind of control over society, was just (ph) how much control would he want to see a post-Soviet democratic Russia put up with, or how much does he think it needs.

I just don't think we'll know the answer, and we probably won't know it until after the March 26 elections. He won't tip his hand, I don't think.

GROSS: It sounds like the Russian public really wants a strong leader. I don't know, it seems to me that there might be concerns about having a leader who's too strong because it crosses the line into having too much power or authoritarianism.

Why do you think that the Russian people seem to be inclined now to vote for, you know, a, quote, "strong" leader? What does that mean?

BOHLEN: I think -- I mean, I think -- first of all, it's in their tradition. I mean, they've always had leadership that's personified by one person, whether it be the czar or the general secretary of the Communist Party. And, you know, power in Russia has been very concentrated at the top. But I think that the Russian yearning for a strong leader that's been picked up in the polls that support Putin and support the war and so on, I mean, actually a little bit -- should not be regarded with alarm.

I mean, basically, I think a lot of people just want a normal leader and a normal state, a state that functions, a leader who leads...

GROSS: Do you mean normal as opposed to Yeltsin?

BOHLEN: As opposed to Yeltsin. I mean, this became, you know, very erratic. I mean, governments sort of, you know, flying off their perch, and he was going into the hospital every other month, and there are all these intrigues and scandals and he would go abroad and act like a fool, and this was embarrassing. And he was not watching the shop. I mean, the place is corrupt, the bureaucracy is -- has never -- has not learned its place, it doesn't serve the people, it serves itself. People got rich in sort of shameless ways.

And it's no wonder that the people say, you know, Could somebody please, you know, bring this place to -- into some order? I mean, I don't think it's a -- you know, it's not a yearning for Stalin, it's not a quasi-fascist tendency. I just think it's -- at its essence, it's just sort of a call for normal government, responsible and accountable.

Having said that, because Russians aren't so used to taking responsibility for their government, since democracy is a relatively new phenomena here, they're not aware that they are the ones that should put the curbs on the powers that they give their leaders, and I think there's a -- it's just -- it's a process of experience and learning.

And there are many people who fear that, you know, there's sort of (inaudible) away this power to somebody who might abuse it. I mean, and that there's little -- there are few checks and balances in the system today that would stop him.

GROSS: My guest is Celestine Bohlen, Moscow correspondent for "The New York Times." We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: Joining us by phone from Moscow is Celestine Bohlen of "The New York Times."

You know, the Chechen rebels have their own Web site, and, you know, anyone could go onto their Web site, anyone, you know, with an Internet connection can go on their Web site and read their spin on the latest happening in the war.

I'm wondering what kind of impact the Internet is making in Russia, if a lot of people have the technology to connect to it, if -- you know, in America, it's made such a huge impact, both in terms of, you know, the stock market, how people shop, how people get their information, how people make money.

BOHLEN: Right. I mean, I think, you know, actually those -- well, first of all, here, no. I mean, it's not got the social impact that you're describing because people just don't, you know, have the money for the computers and the connections and the whole thing.

On information, however, is the -- the Internet is making a big headway, I'd say, I mean, that -- there's several political Web sites that are becoming the same kind of must reading that newspapers are. The one that -- the Web site that the Chechans that you mention, I mean, is clearly followed by the Russian press.

And I was also going back to the Russian press and the Chechen war. Many of the newspapers have had stories critical of the military, critical of their information policy. And they'll pick up information that comes on the Chechen Web site, and they'll -- you know, they'll use it as they see fit. I mean, a lot of -- I mean, I mean, just as the Russian generals stop (ph) propaganda, so does the Chechen Web site. So, you know, one, you know, picks or balances or says, This is what they say, and this is what the other side says.

I mean, you will find that kind of use of information in the Russian press, particularly, you know, in the absence of anything more, you know, more direct access to what's happening on the ground there.

GROSS: Have there been any protests against this war?

BOHLEN: No. I mean, in this war, there really have not been any street protests. I mean, there are, you know, ways in which people have -- can voice their dissatisfaction or doubts about the official version of the truth that they're getting. A large part of the press has been more skeptical than they seem, if you read what they're writing closely.

But another case is there -- there's a committee, there's a network of committees called the Committees of the Soldiers' Mothers, where people go to get information about how to get out of the draft and how to, you know, protect their rights if their sons are conscripts in the Russian army and so on.

And if you go to any of those meetings and you talk to any of those mothers, you realize that there are people out there that are, you know, that are very dubious, that have no love of the Russian military and don't trust what they're hearing and will do anything, anything, to get their sons not to have to serve.

I mean, there are obviously, you know, other people who are running to sign up because they, you know, feel they're compelled by the -- their patriotic, you know, pitch that the government has given on this. But as I say, there's a kind of a passive resistance.

But in terms of open access protest, no. And it's a very curious and disturbing fact, I think, about Russian society. People don't do that. It's far away, and, you know, they're very ambivalent about Chechans, who are discriminated against and sort of regarded with suspicion in large parts of Russian society.

So, I mean, there's a curious detachment. I mean, I think people don't know how bad it is down there, but they don't want to know either. So, I mean, it's not just that they're -- don't have the information, they don't want the full information.

GROSS: What impact is conscription having on the younger population of men? I mean, is there, like, a -- is there a noticeable shortage of young men now in Moscow because so many men have been conscripted, or has it not penetrated that much?

BOHLEN: No, I don't -- it's not at that level. I mean, this is a conscript army anyway, so, you know, it's not like they had to call up, you know, in specially great numbers just for this war. They're -- every -- twice a year, there's a draft, and people are eligible, and they serve. I mean, that there's mandatory serving in the army in Russia.

So what I was describing, these mothers' committees, their work has been advising people how they can, you know, delay conscription, how they can enroll in universities to not be drafted, how they can get medical deferments and various other deferments. But -- and that's -- in Moscow, for instance, I was just actually reading something which said that in Moscow, 50 percent of young Moscow men between the ages of -- I guess it's 18 and 27 are -- have been given deferments because of their studies, another 30 are not taken on for health reasons, and there's a healthy 10 percent that are considered draft dodgers.

I mean, the draft is something, even in peacetime, that Russian families often try to avoid because it's a very brutal army where soldiers are badly treated.

GROSS: Celestine Bohlen, thank you so much for talking with us.

BOHLEN: Thank you.

GROSS: Celestine Bohlen is Moscow correspondent for "The New York Times." Our interview was recorded earlier today.

FRESH AIR's senior producer today was Roberta Shorrock. Our interviews and reviews are produced by Monique Nazareth, Naomi Person, Phyllis Myers, and Amy Salit, with Patty Leswing. Research assistance from Brendan Noonam. Ann Marie Baldonado directed the show.

I'm Terry Gross.

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia
Guest: Celestine Bohlen
High: Celestine Bohlen is a correspondent from The New York Times Moscow bureau. She discusses the role of the new acting Russian president, Vladimir Putin, in the Chechen conflict. Bohlen also discusses the reaction of Russian citizens to the war.
Spec: Media; Chechnya; War; Russia

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End-Story: Celestine Bohlen Discusses the Russian Public's Reaction to the War in Chechnya
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