Journalist Jon Landay
Jon Landay is national security correspondent for the Knight Ridder newspapers. At the time of this conversation he was about 30 miles from the city of Kirkuk in Northern Iraq. But he's not one of the embedded reporters. Landay is traveling as an independent journalist, with a driver and translator.
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DATE March 27, 2003 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A⨠TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A⨠NETWORK NPR⨠PROGRAM Fresh Airâ¨â¨Interview: Journalist Jonathan Landay discusses his reportingâ¨in the Kurdish area of northern Iraqâ¨TERRY GROSS, host:â¨â¨This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.â¨â¨On today's show we're talking with two reporters in Iraq who are not embeddedâ¨with the US military. Jonathan Landay is the national security correspondentâ¨for Knight Ridder newspapers. He's in northern Iraq where the Kurds have beenâ¨living under their own rule for about a decade, protected against Saddamâ¨Hussein by the no-fly zone. Things have been relatively quiet where Landayâ¨is, but that may be about to change. Last night more than 1,000 USâ¨paratroopers dropped into northern Iraq, securing an air field and opening aâ¨northern front. We called Landay earlier today on his satellite phone.â¨â¨Tell us where you are and why you're there.â¨â¨Mr. JONATHAN LANDAY (Knight Ridder Newspapers): OK. At the moment, I'mâ¨about 20 miles west of the city of Sulaymaniyah, which is in the Kurdâ¨rebel-held enclave in northern Iraq. I am on the side of the road speaking toâ¨you over my satellite phone. And I'm on my way to a small town calledâ¨Chamchamal, which is about 400 to 500 yards from the Iraqi front lines thatâ¨are defending the city of Kirkuk. I'm here because Kirkuk has got to be oneâ¨of the primary or most important objectives of any US military campaign hereâ¨in Iraq, especially of any military campaign that is opened from the north,â¨from the rebel Kurdish-held area in northern Iraq. Kirkuk is a place that notâ¨only sits atop one of the largest deposits of oil in Iraq and perhaps in theâ¨entire Middle East, but it is also a place where there are ethnic disputes,â¨and it kind of epitomizes some of the more difficult issues that are going toâ¨have to be grappled with by the United States and its coalition partners whenâ¨this military campaign is over and there is a US military occupation of Iraq.â¨â¨GROSS: So you've been spending your nights right near where the Iraqi frontâ¨lines are, the front lines defending Kirkuk. Do you get to actually see theâ¨Iraqi troops?â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: Absolutely. We can see them very plainly through--actually, ifâ¨you get up close enough, right up to the beginning of a 400-yard no-man'sâ¨land, you can see them quite distinctly on top of their bunkers. You can alsoâ¨see them quite distinctly through binoculars. And we actually have witnessedâ¨US air strikes on their bunkers along--that are defending the road that leadsâ¨from the city of Sulaymaniyah. It's a four-lane highway. It goes throughâ¨there lines and on to the city of Kirkuk.â¨â¨GROSS: What kind of battle are you expecting there?â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: It's really hard to say at the moment because the United Statesâ¨had wanted to open a northern front using 60-odd thousand American troopsâ¨backed by tanks and all of the implements of modern warfare, but they ran intoâ¨a problem. And that problem was the fact that the Turks--the Turkishâ¨government was not agreeable, not amenable to allowing the use of theirâ¨military bases as launching pads, as staging pads for the opening of a USâ¨military front in the north of Iraq, and therefore, that hasn't happened.â¨â¨Now we do have American Special Forces present here in northern Iraq. Thereâ¨was an air drop on Wednesday night--actually, early Thursday morning by aâ¨little under 1,000 paratroopers of the 173rd Paratroop Regiment that flew inâ¨from Italy and took control of an air field to the west of me in another partâ¨of the Kurdish enclave controlled by one of the two Kurdish parties thatâ¨control the enclave. But beyond that, there are no major US militaryâ¨formations here in the north. And no way do they have anywhere near the kindâ¨of troops they need to be able to open an offensive on the Iraqi armyâ¨formations that are defending Kirkuk and then to the west, the city of Mosul,â¨which is also sitting atop major oil deposits.â¨â¨GROSS: So in the meantime, you know, you're kind of waiting to see what'sâ¨going to happen in Kirkuk. What are you doing in the meantime? Where areâ¨you looking for your stories?â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: Well, there's been quite a lot to report until very recently.â¨We have a situation brewing up on the northeastern border of the Kurdishâ¨enclave and Iran, where there is a pocket of Kurdish Islamic fundamentalistsâ¨who are allegedly allied with Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network. Reportedly,â¨there are dozens of al-Qaeda members who escaped the US military operations inâ¨Afghanistan and are being given refuge by the Kurdish Islamic group, which isâ¨called Ansar al-Islam, or `the partisans of Islam.' That is why there areâ¨quite a few numbers of US Special Forces here. There is a planned offensiveâ¨to go in there and take control of this enclave and crush Ansar and anyâ¨al-Qaeda members who are there. We think we are coming fairly close to thisâ¨offensive because an associated Islamic group that held territory on the rightâ¨flank of al-Ansar[sic] vacated its positions today. There are hundreds ofâ¨them, and their families have been leaving that area, and we believe thatâ¨there is an offensive in the offing. So there's been that to report.â¨â¨There are very compelling internally displaced persons stories. People--Kurdsâ¨who went through the depravations against them by the Saddam regime, theâ¨chemical attacks during what was known as the Al Faw campaign in 1988, whenâ¨thousands of Kurds were killed in chemical weapons attacks by Saddam.â¨Thousands were massacred. There are more than 180,000-odd who are unaccountedâ¨for. And then again in 1991, you had another huge refugee outpouring fromâ¨here when former President Bush instigated and then abandoned a Kurdishâ¨uprising following Saddam's defeat in the 1991 Gulf War. Those experiencesâ¨left really, really deep scars in the Kurd--in the collective Kurdish psyche.â¨So there's those kinds of stories to report as well.â¨â¨GROSS: Jonathan, how have the Kurds been taking the news that Turkey is nowâ¨saying it won't send additional troops into northern Iraq? That's somethingâ¨that the Kurds had been worried about. They don't want Turkish troops toâ¨cross the line. Is there a lot of relief now that the Turks are saying theyâ¨won't send additional troops?â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: Absolutely. There's a great deal of relief among Kurdishâ¨officials. Earlier in the day I spoke with a very senior official of theâ¨Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, which is the Kurdish rebel party that controlsâ¨the part of northern Iraq that I'm in--expressed enormous relief that theyâ¨will not have to deal with a Turkish military incursion. And yet there stillâ¨is some lingering apprehension that the Turks may still come in. It's a veryâ¨complicated situation here. And this is, again, why I'm here to particularlyâ¨focus on the Kirkuk situation. The Turks are fearful or say they are fearfulâ¨that under the cover of this war the Kurds here in northern Iraq could reviveâ¨a drive for an independent Kurdish state, even though the senior Kurdishâ¨leaders have repeatedly, repeatedly renounced any intention to seek anâ¨independent state. Nevertheless, the Turks say they are concerned by this,â¨and in particular is a concern that if the Kurds take control of Kirkuk, theyâ¨will then have control of enormous, enormous financial resources in the formâ¨of the oil that is beneath the territory around the city and that they couldâ¨use those resources to fund an rejuvenate a drive for independence. And theâ¨Turks themselves have actually threatened to invade if the Kurds try to takeâ¨control of Kirkuk.â¨â¨The problem here is that there are tens of thousands of Kurds and otherâ¨minorities, Turkmen, Syrian Christians, who over the years have beenâ¨ethnically cleansed in progressive--in successive waves of ethnic cleansing byâ¨the Saddam regime, forced out of their homes around Kirkuk and other areasâ¨nearby Kirkuk that sit atop oil deposits. And Arabs have been put in theirâ¨properties, Arabs from other parts of Iraq. This Arabization programâ¨basically aimed at ensuring that oil-rich areas of northern Iraq are not underâ¨the control of minorities, that there are Arab--there is an Arab majority inâ¨these areas that are traditionally homes to minorities.â¨â¨GROSS: What reaction have you been getting to this war from the Kurds you'veâ¨been talking to? I mean, the Kurds really hate Saddam Hussein. Saddamâ¨Hussein has ethnically cleansed them from certain towns. He gassed the Kurds.â¨So, you know, if anyone has a right to hate Saddam Hussein, it's certainly theâ¨Kurds. But how are they seeing the war and how it's been going?â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: It's very multileveled, actually. It depends on who you talkâ¨to. Senior Kurdish officials are extremely happy with what's going on. Theirâ¨number one priority is to see Saddam out of power. But when you talk to otherâ¨people, for instance, ordinary people--I spent about an hour sitting in aâ¨barbershop yesterday just chatting with the guy who owns the place and aâ¨couple of his friends--they're kind of frustrated because they follow what'sâ¨going on in the south on satellite television, particularly Al-Jazeera, theâ¨Arabic-language television, and they're getting frustrated that there hasn'tâ¨been a similar offensive by the United States opened from the north.â¨â¨On the other hand, if you talk to other people--I talked to a group of guysâ¨who were sort of standing around a fire yesterday in one of the bazaars tryingâ¨to keep warm--they were quite happy with what's going on. Again, their moodâ¨reflected one of relief that somebody is trying to get rid of the man who hasâ¨oppressed them for so many years.â¨â¨GROSS: Is there a sense of confidence that America and England will win thisâ¨war and that Saddam Hussein is history, or do you get the feeling that theâ¨Kurds are still unsure about which way it's going to go?â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: No, I haven't found that on the part of anybody I've talked to.â¨There seems to be this confidence perhaps bred by American propaganda, USâ¨administration propaganda that the United States military is the best and thatâ¨it's unbeatable and that they're going to continue fighting this war untilâ¨Saddam is gone, and that's the message that people are believing here.â¨â¨And yet there are some apprehensions if you talk to people. One of the guys Iâ¨was talking to yesterday was expressing concern for ordinary civilians inâ¨other parts of Iraq. They're worried about the humanitarian aid concern--theâ¨humanitarian aid situation. They're worried about civilians in places likeâ¨Nasiriyah, in places like Najaf, in places like Basra not having food and notâ¨having water. And they would like to see this war over with, they say,â¨because they don't want to see ordinary Iraqis--they say not just the Kurds,â¨but all Iraqis have been suffering under Saddam.â¨â¨GROSS: My guest is Jonathan Landay, national security correspondent forâ¨Knight Ridder newspapers. He's in northern Iraq. We'll talk more after aâ¨break. This is FRESH AIR.â¨â¨(Announcements)â¨â¨GROSS: Let's get back to the interview we recorded earlier today withâ¨Jonathan Landay, who's in northern Iraq. He's the national securityâ¨correspondent for Knight Ridder newspapers.â¨â¨You've been spending a lot of time in Chamchamal, which you write, hasâ¨become...â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: Yes, I have.â¨â¨GROSS: You say it's become a town of men, that almost all the women andâ¨children are gone. Where have they fled to and why have they fled?â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: Most of them have fled to relatives who live in villages in theâ¨inner parts of the Kurdish enclave or fled towards the Iranian border becauseâ¨there is this lingering concern, this lingering terror, actually, that Saddamâ¨may use chemical weapons against this part of Iraq, particularly if it's usedâ¨as a springboard for the launching of a northern front by US forces. Andâ¨therefore, a lot of people--most men have sent their families out of the cityâ¨and then returned to take care of their own properties. Plus, the fact thatâ¨Chamchamal sits--the end of Chamchamal sits literally 500 yards from theâ¨end--from the Iraqi front lines defending Kirkuk.â¨â¨Now it's curious. I just received a telephone call from somebody down inâ¨Chamchamal who says that the Kurdish rebels have taken control of a majorâ¨bunker complex on those Iraqi front lines about 500 yards from Chamchamal.â¨These are bunkers that were bombed earlier in the day--yesterday repeatedly byâ¨the United States and several times before then. So it seems that it wasâ¨quite a smart idea for a lot of people to get their families out because itâ¨looks like there could be a lot of fighting in Chamchamal in the coming hoursâ¨and days.â¨â¨GROSS: You've also spent a lot of time in Shorish(ph), which is about 25â¨miles away from Kirkuk. And this is a town that's basically like aâ¨resettlement program. These are people who were ethnically cleansed fromâ¨where?â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: Most of these people were ethnically cleansed from Kirkuk.â¨There are about 45,000 people who are living in pretty bad conditions.â¨They're rudimentary homes. They've been there for a while, so people haveâ¨settled in, but you know, it's open sewers, muddy roads, no regular plumbing,â¨although they do have stand pipes where people--you know, sort of communityâ¨faucets where people can fill up their water containers. And there are waterâ¨deliveries, but essentially, this is a place of internally displaced peopleâ¨who have been there beginning in 1988. And then another wave of them wasâ¨pushed out in 1991 after the collapse of the Kurdish uprising.â¨â¨And so it's kind of an interesting place that's survived to a great extent onâ¨smuggling. A lot of the men who live there still have family on the otherâ¨side of the Iraqi lines. And really, the only thing they could do toâ¨supplement their incomes--and their incomes, I should say, are only the foodâ¨they get through the UN oil-for-food program--is to smuggle. And as soon asâ¨the Iraqis started building up their forces on these front lines, most ofâ¨these guys had to stop smuggling because it became too dangerous. Andâ¨therefore, the poverty in Shorish has increased quite substantially. Andâ¨again, like Chamchamal, which is very close to Shorish, most of the men haveâ¨taken their families out of this place, because it's even closer to the Iraqiâ¨front lines than Chamchamal. And in fact, sometimes the Iraqi troops on theâ¨front lines fire into the buildings at the end of Shorish. So it's a kind ofâ¨dangerous place also.â¨â¨GROSS: It must be strange to be in these towns of all men.â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: It was kind of amusing to be down there the other day, becauseâ¨the guys who are really doing a great business are the kabob-makers, the guysâ¨in the--you know, who have these carts in the street, or small stores whereâ¨they cook over charcoal fires. They make minced-meat kabobs out of mutton.â¨And you know, they're telling me that they're doing fantastic business becauseâ¨a lot of these men don't know how to cook.â¨â¨GROSS: Oh, sure.â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: We're talking about a pretty male-dominated society here inâ¨which the women do all the cooking. And suddenly there are no women aroundâ¨to cook, so the kabob-makers are having a field day.â¨â¨GROSS: Now Kirkuk is still controlled by Saddam Hussein. And you've reportedâ¨that residents of Kirkuk have been told to leave their doors open for Iraqiâ¨soldiers so that the soldiers can take shelter if an aerial assault begins.â¨They must be living in terror.â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: Well, I think they've been living in terror long before thisâ¨war. The terror has only increased. We're talking about a regime that hasâ¨been at odds with the Kurds and has been persecuting the Kurds for decades,â¨and therefore--and has discriminated against these people in a way that fewâ¨minorities anywhere in the world have experienced. You know, they've beenâ¨bombed with chemical weapons, they've been executed, slaughtered in massâ¨murder, and these people, the Kurds who live in Kirkuk, have been living underâ¨the boot of the people who did this to them.â¨â¨And that is why the issue of Kirkuk is such a poignant one because it is hereâ¨where there could be an explosion in ethnic bloodshed once or if Kirkuk isâ¨taken over by American forces. And this is one of the issues that the Bushâ¨administration is going to have to deal with. So, yes, we've talked--we canâ¨actually get through to people sometimes on the phone in Kirkuk. You've gotâ¨to talk very surreptitiously in code. You can't use names. And they doâ¨describe conditions there as being pretty terrifying. They also talk aboutâ¨where some of the bombing has been hitting, but it's something that we do fewâ¨and far between because of the danger to these people.â¨â¨GROSS: Is this your first time covering a war, Jonathan?â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: No, it's not. I've been covering conflict, particularly ethnicâ¨and religious conflict--and not through choice. It's something that I justâ¨fell into when I first became a foreign correspondent in 1985. I was sent toâ¨India and I spent five years there. And this was at the time of the Sovietâ¨occupation of Afghanistan. And it was part of my beat to cover Afghanistan.â¨And also at the time, there was Sikh insurrection in the Indian--northernâ¨Indian state of Punjab and the insurrection by Muslim fundamentalists in theâ¨Indian portion of Kashmir. And then at the same time there was a civil warâ¨going on in Sri Lanka. And all of this was on my beat. And I just--as Iâ¨said, it just kind of happened that I began covering conflict then.â¨â¨And in 1990, I just happened to be transferred from New Delhi to Belgrade,â¨former Yugoslavia. And I spent five years covering the Yugoslav conflict.â¨And so no, this is not my first conflict.â¨â¨GROSS: Jonathan Landay, recorded earlier today from northern Iraq. Landay isâ¨the national security correspondent for Knight Ridder newspapers. We'llâ¨continue the interview in the second half of the show. I'm Terry Gross andâ¨this is FRESH AIR.â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.â¨â¨We're going to hear more of the interview we recorded earlier today withâ¨Jonathan Landay, who is in northern Iraq. He's the national securityâ¨correspondent for Knight Ridder newspapers. Landay has been reporting fromâ¨towns that are part of the Kurdish enclave, where Kurds have been living underâ¨their own rule, protected from Saddam Hussein by the no-fly zone. Last nightâ¨1,000 US paratroopers dropped into northern Iraq, opening a northern front.â¨One of their missions may be to secure the oil fields of Kirkuk.â¨â¨Now you're talking to us from the side of the road on your satellite phone aâ¨few miles away from Kirkuk. Yes?â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: I guess I'm about 30 miles from Kirkuk, where I am now.â¨â¨GROSS: OK. Are you alone in your car?â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: No, I have my translator and my driver with me.â¨â¨GROSS: And have you been traveling with them all over?â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: With my driver--I've been with him ever since I got here. Myâ¨translator is relatively new because my first translator lay down theâ¨condition that when he first went to work for me that once the war started, heâ¨was going to have to take care of his family, and he really didn't want to getâ¨too close to Chamchamal or that particular area. And we agreed that he wouldâ¨leave me once the war started, so he has done so. We still communicate quiteâ¨frequently. He does do some fact-checking for me back in Sulaymaniyah. We'reâ¨in contact over cellular telephones. But yeah, he's no longer working for me.â¨â¨GROSS: You're in something of a waiting period. You're kind of waiting forâ¨something to happen in Kirkuk, for a battle to start in Kirkuk. Is this anâ¨apprehensive period for you as you wait for that to start, not knowing whatâ¨will happen and what the outcome will be?â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: Absolutely. I mean, it's been this--everybody tends to sitâ¨around and speculate: Well, what's going to go on next? Well, if thisâ¨happens, then maybe this won't happen. And if they do this, then maybe theyâ¨won't do that. And the whole question is, how--I mean, the biggest questionâ¨in my mind is, how am I going to cover what I'm supposed to cover? Will Iâ¨even be able to cover what I'm supposed to cover? You know, my understandingâ¨is that down in the south, a lot of journalists have gone unilaterally, likeâ¨myself. Journalists who are not embedded with US forces have not been able toâ¨cross over from Kuwait into southern Iraq, and if they have, it's been aâ¨fairly dicey thing. And so the big question in my mind and the mind of allâ¨the unilateral journalists who are here--and many of us have been here forâ¨months now--is whether or not we're going to even be able to go cover theâ¨story that we're here to cover because there's a chance that we could beâ¨stopped by US troops if an offensive is ever launched or by Kurdish rebels whoâ¨have now agreed to put themselves under the command of General Tommy Franks.â¨â¨So that is one of the questions uppermost in our minds, but also, the wholeâ¨question of our safety is always one that we're constantly asking ourselves,â¨constantly assessing. When I go down to Chamchamal to stay, to Shorish(ph) toâ¨stay, I have guards 24 hours, watching the place where I stay. We decided toâ¨take stickers off our car today which said `TV' on them, only because it kindâ¨of makes us stand out, and that's something we don't want to do. And thenâ¨there's also the threat from Ansar al-Islam. There was a journalist killedâ¨about five or six days ago. The question is whether or not he was targeted orâ¨not. He was standing on the side of the road, an Australian cameraman,â¨filming and there are indications that the car bomber that killed him actuallyâ¨aimed for him.â¨â¨So, yeah, there are these concerns also. When things get too dangerous, ifâ¨they get too dangerous, I'm going to pull back and wait and just assess andâ¨see what I'm going to do. So, yeah, that's a process that's constantly goingâ¨on in my mind.â¨â¨GROSS: Is there a lot of debate in your mind about your responsibilities as aâ¨journalist and your responsibilities to just protect yourself?â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: Absolutely. One of the things that my bosses are absolutelyâ¨adamant about is that there's no story that is worth risking your life for,â¨absolutely none. And I think one of the reasons I was sent by my bosses, thatâ¨I was selected to do this particular job is because of the experience I've hadâ¨doing this kind of thing for almost 15 years now, using the judgment that I'veâ¨acquired over this time to determine when things are safe enough for me to doâ¨my job and when they're not. And, you know, the bosses have this confidenceâ¨in me, and again, that's why I've been sent here and I guess that's why a lotâ¨of the journalists who have been sent to this part of Iraq--that that's theâ¨confidence their bosses have in them also.â¨â¨GROSS: Are you feeling like you did the right thing by choosing to be anâ¨independent journalist and to not be embedded?â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: I'm not sure. I'm sure my wife is very pleased that I didn'tâ¨get embedded because I'd be in the middle of some very dangerous fightingâ¨right now, and I haven't had to face that at all here. And there's still aâ¨question of whether or not, you know, that's going to even happen where I am.â¨And if it does, you know, again, I will use my judgment that I've accumulatedâ¨over all these years to determine where I go and when I go. I'm certainly notâ¨going to cross over towards Kirkuk until there's a collapse of the Iraqiâ¨troops, if there's a collapse of the Iraqi troops guarding Kirkuk, and that isâ¨why I have based myself where I am, down near the front lines, because we willâ¨actually be able to see when or if that happens.â¨â¨You know, you have to determine when things are not safe for you to stay whereâ¨you are, and also, I have to say that we are with people, Kurds who know theâ¨area, who are from Kirkuk, who have been back and forth quite regularlyâ¨through the lines, know where all the Iraqi positions are, know where theâ¨areas of danger are and where there are areas of safety. And these are peopleâ¨whose judgments I also will rely on.â¨â¨GROSS: Well, Jonathan, I wish you good luck and safety, and I really want toâ¨thank you a lot for talking with us. Thank you.â¨â¨Mr. LANDAY: It's my pleasure.â¨â¨GROSS: Jonathan Landay, recorded earlier today from northern Iraq. Landay isâ¨the national security correspondent for Knight Ridder newspapers.â¨â¨Coming up, we talk with New York Times foreign correspondent John Burns, whoâ¨is in Baghdad. This is FRESH AIR.â¨â¨* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *â¨â¨Interview: John Burns discusses what he has seen of the war inâ¨Iraqâ¨TERRY GROSS, host:â¨â¨My guest, John Burns, is in Baghdad. He's a foreign correspondent for The Newâ¨York Times. He's won Pulitzer Prizes for his coverage of the Taliban'sâ¨takeover of Afghanistan and for his reporting from Bosnia. We called himâ¨earlier today in his hotel room.â¨â¨As we record this, it's morning in the East Coast of the United States. It'sâ¨afternoon where you are in Baghdad. What has your day been like? What haveâ¨you done? How close have you been to the bombing today?â¨â¨Mr. JOHN BURNS (Foreign Correspondent, The New York Times): Well, I'll startâ¨with our night. That's to say, our Wednesday night into Thursday. We wereâ¨aware from statements that had been made in Qatar, the central commandâ¨headquarters for the war, and in Washington that attention was going to turnâ¨to certain telecommunications buildings in Baghdad and in addition to theâ¨Republican Guard formations southwest of the city, which are facing the 3rdâ¨Infantry Division as it advances towards Baghdad. And in the course of theâ¨night, there were a series of massive explosions, easily the biggest singleâ¨explosions that we have heard since the war began a week ago. One of them inâ¨particular from across the river was so powerful, you could have imagined itâ¨was an earthquake. The 20-story Palestine Hotel, in which I'm staying, shookâ¨and I imagined for a moment that it might actually fall to the ground. Itâ¨wasn't until past dawn we were able to discover what the target of that strikeâ¨had been. It turned out to be the principal telecommunications or telephoneâ¨headquarters for southern Baghdad. That's to say, the telephone system thatâ¨serves the part of the city where much of the government and many of Saddamâ¨Hussein's palaces are centered.â¨â¨And the intriguing thing about that strike--and I have just returned fromâ¨seeing it for the first time, the result of it--this building is a massiveâ¨block of a building rising to perhaps 12 or 15 stories, and it sitsâ¨immediately adjacent to what is known as the Saddam Tower. It's a 700-footâ¨tower of a kind that the citizens of Seattle, for example, would be veryâ¨familiar. It's a needle with a restaurant about two-thirds of the way up.â¨What the United States military planners did was they managed to put a bomb, aâ¨massive bomb, right on the roof of the telecommunications center without soâ¨much as damaging in any way, other than a few broken windows, the tower, theâ¨Saddam Tower, which stands perhaps--I mean, I'm guessing here, but no moreâ¨than about 50 or 60 yards across open ground from it. Once again, they'veâ¨obviously decided to save what can be saved here. They're going after theâ¨military targets.â¨â¨GROSS: How close have any of the bombs come to you?â¨â¨Mr. BURNS: Well, this afternoon, they came very close. The Ministry ofâ¨Information building, another vast, gargantuan structure that sits in the sameâ¨government quarter of the city--we have been warned repeatedly by the Pentagonâ¨that we should not go there, that it's a potential military target. Ourâ¨judgment has been that since the ministry insists on holding news conferencesâ¨there and the Pentagon can see us coming in and going out, that they will notâ¨destroy it, at least during the day. Today that turned out to be not the bestâ¨judgment because we were gathered for a news conference at midafternoon forâ¨one of the ministers, and just as we were assembled in the briefing room, twoâ¨huge explosions struck. We don't know exactly what they struck, but they wereâ¨close enough that everybody abandoned the building immediately, and it was theâ¨first time that I've seen the press corps here with a sense of real alarm.â¨Otherwise, we have seen many of these strikes from our hotel balconiesâ¨overnight.â¨â¨And you can occasionally glimpse the cruise missiles. You certainly hearâ¨them. One of them came past the other night, and I would guess--just aâ¨guess--from the sound of it, it was a little bit like being on the edge of aâ¨military airfield when a low-flying supersonic jet goes by. I would think itâ¨was passing within about 500 yards of where I was standing.â¨â¨GROSS: What's your sense of popular opinion now in Baghdad? Is the Unitedâ¨States being seen as liberators or occupiers?â¨â¨Mr. BURNS: You know, the honest answer to that is that nobody can tell, inâ¨the sense that Mr. Gallup could were this another kind of society altogether,â¨exactly where the balance of public opinion lies. What we do know is thatâ¨there are sharp divides here. It's no surprise to say that there are largeâ¨numbers of loyalists of Saddam Hussein who still at this hour hold a monopolyâ¨of physical power. How numerous they are we don't know, but they certainlyâ¨are in the tens of thousands.â¨â¨There are others at the other end of the spectrum who we have heard from inâ¨the last years, only by whispers, who very much want another kind of Iraq, aâ¨free Iraq, an Iraq free from fear and free from terror. One might surmiseâ¨that they are very numerous indeed from the various indications that we getâ¨here.â¨â¨In the middle ground there are people who are concerned above all for theirâ¨own safety. And that is to say, these are people who, even if they would wishâ¨for a new Iraq, do not wish to see their families put out the kind of hazardsâ¨that they think they will be by an American siege of Baghdad in an attempt toâ¨overthrow Saddam Hussein.â¨â¨GROSS: But it...â¨â¨Mr. BURNS: My sense is that--go ahead. I'm sorry.â¨â¨GROSS: No, no. I was going to say, it certainly sounds like it's not aâ¨clear-cut issue that the Iraqis see the United States and British asâ¨liberators.â¨â¨Mr. BURNS: Well, you know something? We will know that only at the end ofâ¨this. But I think you have to remember that the penalty for free expressionâ¨of opinion here is extremely severe. Within the last hour, an Iraqi known toâ¨me and a person of considerable personal fortitude, frightened by the senseâ¨that he might be considered to be less than completely loyal, was reduced in aâ¨moment to the most pitiable state of fear and shaking. He said, `They willâ¨shoot me. They will shoot me.' I don't know if that's literally true, but Iâ¨do know that in 30 years of reporting on hard places and hard times, I haveâ¨never been in a country where people are so afraid. Thus, trying to peerâ¨beyond this, to find out what people really think, is extremely difficult.â¨â¨GROSS: I know you just mentioned the person who you know well who was, youâ¨know, reduced to, quote, "quivering" because he was afraid he would be shot byâ¨the Saddam Hussein regime because of something he said or did. You've, Iâ¨think, implied in your reporting that even your minders, the people assignedâ¨by the Saddam Hussein government to mind you as a journalist, if you do theâ¨wrong thing by those standards, they can get in trouble and be terriblyâ¨punished. So that puts you in a funny position, doesn't it?â¨â¨Mr. BURNS: You know, there's always a danger. I'm very, very aware of theâ¨risk of journalists making themselves the story. And I, as a British passportâ¨holder and a correspondent for The New York Times, have protections here thatâ¨most of the 24 million people of Iraq do not have. That being said, I do notâ¨remember a time in my 30 years now as a foreign correspondent that is anywhereâ¨near as complicated as this is. And one of the complications is the oneâ¨you've just mentioned, which is that whatever we calculate, however we makeâ¨the calculus for our own safety in chasing stories, we have to always keep inâ¨mind that the hazards are not ones we take for ourselves alone, that we haveâ¨drivers and minders or, as they prefer to call themselves, guides who are veryâ¨much more exposed than we are. I have been in the execution chamber at theâ¨Abu Ghareeb prison, which is the heart of the Iraqi gulag, about 20 kilometersâ¨west of where I am now sitting, and I have seen the butchers' hooks--have rowâ¨upon row in the ceiling. So I know where the story ends here for people whoâ¨have been judged to be disloyal or plotters or in some way who have crossedâ¨the regime.â¨â¨GROSS: My guest is New York Times foreign correspondent John Burns. He's inâ¨Baghdad. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨GROSS: John Burns is speaking to us from Baghdad. He's reporting fromâ¨Baghdad for The New York Times.â¨â¨Can you see signs of preparation within Baghdad for urban war, for a conflictâ¨between the coalition forces and the Iraqi troops?â¨â¨Mr. BURNS: Well, in a sense, that's a very easy question to answer. Saddamâ¨Hussein's government has said all along that if war came, they would fight itâ¨with all means at their disposal. We have already seen the power of whichâ¨they dispose. If they haven't given the United States and the United Kingdomâ¨a riff on the nose or a black eye in the last week, they have certainly shownâ¨that they have very powerful resistance, I think considerably greater than theâ¨Pentagon expected and, to be honest, most of us who have reported here in theâ¨last years expected, because of our own estimate of, if you will, theâ¨exhaustion of the Iraqi people after 30 years under this government.â¨â¨Baghdad is the core of this whole issue. It's a city of five million people.â¨It sits on the flat desert. It's about 30 to 35 miles across. It's a hugeâ¨city. Taking this city and toppling its government will be an enormouslyâ¨complicated exercise. And we know how the defense of the city will beâ¨conducted already because the Iraqi leadership has told us it will be doneâ¨just as the defense of Basra and other cities has been conducted, with mainlyâ¨irregular forces. We know that those forces have a tremendous degree ofâ¨political commitment. They will fight to the end, and they are dispersedâ¨around the city. One can see that just moving around Baghdad, with the Ba'athâ¨Party and...â¨â¨GROSS: But where do you see them?â¨â¨Mr. BURNS: Well, you see them in pickup trucks everywhere. It intrigued me.â¨I'm beginning to realize now why it was that in the latter months of last yearâ¨enormous numbers of pickup trucks were being imported to Iraq. And I crossedâ¨that border west of here to Jordan probably a number of times. And oneâ¨evening I saw 600 of these Japanese pickup trucks, of the kind that would beâ¨familiar to Americans--600 of them sitting on transporters inbound to Iraq. Iâ¨now realize what that was all about. As early as last October Saddam Husseinâ¨knew how he was going to fight this war, and the pickup truck is the basicâ¨combat vehicle of the irregulars. They can carry 10 or 12 people in them.â¨The can mount a machine gun in the back. They can carry bazookas,â¨rocket-propelled grenades and, of course, Kalashnikovs and pistols. And theyâ¨are mean customers. These are not people that you would want to cross. Andâ¨there are large numbers of them in Baghdad. In effect, they are the shockâ¨troops, the guerrillas of this regime.â¨â¨The main army and the Republican Guard, of course, are deployed out in aâ¨perimeter defense of the city. And one can only imagine how complex an issueâ¨it will be once the United States Armed Forces get to the crux of the matter,â¨which is the capture or elimination of the president of Iraq. He has many,â¨many options. He's told us that again and again. And I thought at one point,â¨as many of us did, that this might be a short war. I think that we would beâ¨wise to assume that the siege of Baghdad could last weeks and weeks, twoâ¨months, possibly more, rather than the week or two or three that some of usâ¨thought a week ago it was likely to be.â¨â¨GROSS: Would you stay for the siege to cover it, or would you go to a saferâ¨place?â¨â¨Mr. BURNS: You know, I think that I can say--and it doesn't distinguish meâ¨from my colleagues here--that every single one of us will stay if we areâ¨allowed to. It may seem strange to people watching this war from afar onâ¨television, but we are a happy band of brothers and sisters here. This isâ¨what they pay us money to do. The life of a foreign correspondent is anâ¨adventure. It's endlessly intriguing. It calls on every resource that weâ¨have. And to be here at the heart of this drama is extremely engaging,â¨extremely engaging, and I would not wish to be anywhere else. I actuallyâ¨think, odd as it might seem to some of your listeners, I think every morningâ¨when I wake up how lucky I am to be here and how many people in my professionâ¨and at my newspaper would happily take my place.â¨â¨GROSS: Well, here you are--and, I mean, you are risking your life to coverâ¨this war, but here you are in a hotel in Baghdad where I'm not sure if you'reâ¨seen by the people at the hotel as the friend or the enemy or just purely theâ¨customer. What is your relationship with the people who work at the hotel?â¨â¨Mr. BURNS: Do you know, you've asked exactly the right question, and it mayâ¨be that the answer to this will tell your listeners more than anything else Iâ¨could say about the likely outcome of this war. I am here as a representativeâ¨of The New York Times, one of the principal newspapers in the United States ofâ¨America, which has declared war on Iraq. I carry a British passport, which isâ¨the combatant ally of the United States. Everywhere I go in Baghdad, I amâ¨greeted with enormous amiability and enthusiasm, and I can think of noâ¨exception to that.â¨â¨I'll tell you that I was yesterday at the site of the bombing attack, whichâ¨the Iraqis blamed on the United States military, in which 17 Iraqis died andâ¨45 were injured, and that in the--I don't know if there is such a phrase; Iâ¨think it's something we'll have to invent if it doesn't exist--`mud rain' ofâ¨Baghdad. There was this sandstorm which had darkened the city for days onâ¨end, but it began to rain, and rain pours as spattering mud. And so we wereâ¨surrounded by this quite ghastly satanic scene of blasted workshops and homesâ¨and burned-out, carbonized cars and--your listeners will forgive me--but bodyâ¨parts and pools of blood and so forth. And the people who gathered there inâ¨that spattering mud rain were coming up to me and to John Lee Anderson of Theâ¨New Yorker, who I tend to spend a great deal of time with here, and askingâ¨from which countries we came. And as we answered respectively `England,â¨Britain, the United States,' we had our hands taken in vigorous handshakes,â¨broad smiles. `You are welcome. You are welcome.'â¨â¨Now this may be simply that the people of Iraq, who are very, very intelligentâ¨people, are capable of making the sort of distinction between a government andâ¨a people that any civilized people would make, or it could be that encoded inâ¨that reaction was something much, much larger. My own inclination is to thinkâ¨that as my late sainted mother used to say, `It does not mean nothing.'â¨â¨GROSS: Well, John Burns, I wish you safety. Thank you so much for talkingâ¨with us. Thank you for the reporting that you're doing.â¨â¨Mr. BURNS: Thank you very much.â¨â¨GROSS: John Burns, speaking to us from Baghdad in an interview recordedâ¨earlier today. Burns is a foreign correspondent for The New York Times.â¨â¨(Announcements)â¨â¨GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.