Irish Writer Brendan O'Carroll.

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: MAY 18, 1999
Time: 12:00
Tran: 051801np.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Brendan O'Carroll
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:06

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

BARBARA BOGAEV, GUEST HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Barbara Bogaev in for Terry Gross.

"The Mammy" is the first book in a trilogy of novels by Irish writer, comedian, and actor Brendan O'Carroll. It tells the story of Agnes Browne (ph), a struggling young widow with seven children who lives in northern Dublin in the '60s.

O'Carroll's own mother was a widow with 10 children in Dublin. But there, the resemblance ends.

His mammy, as the Irish call their moms, was a former nun who became the first woman elected to Parliament in Ireland. O'Carroll has some extraordinary stories to tell about her political activism, also about his father's family, many of whom were members of the old IRA.

"The Mammy" has just been adapted for the screen. The film is called "Agnes Browne," and stars Anjelica Houston (ph). It's featured at this year's Cannes film festival.

I asked Brendan O'Carroll to read from the beginning of his book, "The Mammy." Agnes Browne and her best friend Marion are trying to sign up at the local social welfare office.

BRENDAN O'CARROLL, IRISH PLAYWRIGHT, ACTOR, AND STAND-UP COMIC: The social welfare office in Dublin is where everything is handled from unemployment and widows' pensions to orphans' pensions. And they would not be renowned for their client relationships.

So when Agnes Browne, the hero of the book, and her friend Marion arrive at the office, the girl opens the Hatch and literally doesn't look at them. She has her head down, pen poised over paper. And her first question will be, "Now, your full name?"

"Agnes Loretta Browne," Agnes answered.

"Is that Browne with an E?"

"Yeah. And Agnes with an E. And Loretta with an E."

The girl stared at Agnes not sure that this woman wasn't tagging (ph) the piss out of her.

"Your maiden name?"

"Redden (ph)."

"Lovely. Now, your husband's name?"

"Nicholas Browne (ph). And before you ask, I don't know his maiden name."

"Nicholas Browne will be fine. Occupation?"

Agnes looked at Marion and then back at the girl and then said softly, "Dead."

"No, when he was alive. What did he do when he was alive?"

"Oh, he was a kitchen porter."

"And where did he work?"

Again, Agnes looked into Marion's blank face. "In the kitchen?" she offered, hoping it was the right answer.

"Of course in the kitchen. But which kitchen? Was it a hotel?"

"It's still a hotel, isn't it, Marion?" Marion nodded.

"Which hotel?" The girl was exasperated now and the question came out through her teeth.

"The Gresham (ph) hotel on O'Connor (ph) Street, love." Agnes answered confidently. That was an easy one.

The girl scribbled in the answer and moved down the form.

"Now, what was the cause of death?"

"A hunter," said Agnes.

"Was he shot?" the girl asked incredulously. "Was your husband shot?"

"By who?" Agnes asked the question as if the girl had found out something about her husband's death that she didn't know herself.

"The hunter. Was your husband shot by a hunter?"

Agnes was puzzled now. She thought it out for a moment, and then a look of realization spread over her face.

"No, love. A Helman Hunter (ph). He was knocked down by a Helman Hunter, a car."

The girl stared at the two women again, then dismissed the thought that this was "Candid Camera." These are just two gobshods (ph), she told herself.

"A motor accident. I see." She scribbled again.

The two women could see that she was now writing on the bottom line of the form. They were pleased. But then she turned the form over to a new list of questions.

The disappointment of the women was audible. The young girl felt it, and in an effort to ease the tension of the two said, "That must have been a shock."

"Yeah, it must have been. Surely couldn't have been expecting it."

BOGAEV: Brendan O'Carroll, welcome to FRESH AIR.

O'CARROLL: Thank you very much.

BOGAEV: And that's Brendan O'Carroll reading from his book "The Mammy." Now was the voice of Agnes Browne the voice of the women all around you growing up in Dublin?

O'CARROLL: Yeah, I grew up in the city center Dublin. And it's populated mainly by dockers and stevedores and on the female side market dealers. I had trouble with that one when I came to America at first because American dealers are stall dealers that we have in Ireland. We would just call them straight dealers.

So when I'm talking to the American publishers over here in Italy, and then said, "Well, what does the heroine of the book, what does she do for a living?" And I said, "Well, she's a dealer." They went, "Oh, my God, no." So I had to explain that it's a market dealer. "She sells fresh fruit and vegetables."

And I would have hung around on Moore Street (ph), which is our main market area, the main fruit, vegetable, fish. You can buy anything from a needle to an anchor, but mainly produce.

And I played around there as a kid. And I used to run errands for all of the dealers.

BOGAEV: The other very important part of Agnes' life is her friendship with her friend Marion. Now, your father died when you were 7. Were you raised by women, by your mom, by aunts? Is that how you developed a sense of how women talk and how they relate to each other?

O'CARROLL: Yeah. And probably because without a doubt, Barbara, the strongest influences on my life were women. I had six sisters. I was the baby.

And when my dad died, my mom filled both roles admirably. And as well as that, I also was very lucky that while my older siblings were growing up, my mom was out saving the world. She retired from politics when I was 6. And when my dad died, I had the undivided attention of this absolute genius.

So between my mom's kind of positive pushing of me and telling me I was the most wonderful thing in the world as a child, and then going from that to the Moore Street market dealers and running errands for them and learning from them the value of a penny, because they would think very much. And for instance, if a small bag of potatoes cost 50 pence, and they were making 10 pence profit on that, before having a night out, they would actually sit down and think how many bags of potatoes that would cost them.

So I learned the value of a penny, the importance of loving your kids regardless of what you have or you don't have from the dealers. And from the other side my mom giving me a very, very positive attitude. And yet, my mom was full of contradictions, too.

BOGAEV: Your mother, apparently not the model for Agnes Browne in the book...

O'CARROLL: No.

BOGAEV: ... although she was also a very strong-minded woman...

O'CARROLL: Yeah.

BOGAEV: ... She entered a convent as a young girl of 20...

O'CARROLL: Yes, that's right.

BOGAEV: ... for one year, right?

O'CARROLL: Well, she was - she actually (unintelligible) for a few years doing her apprenticeship I would say. And then she took her full vows and was a nun for one year before she renounced her vows and realized - she started to question her vocation. And of course, having, you know, in hindsight, having 11 children later, obviously she was right to question her vocation.

But it was a bit of a battle for her to get out of - to get rid of the habit, excuse me - to kick the habit. And she took it all the way to Rome and had to fight. I mean, it was back in the '40s and it was a tough time to be a woman. And she had to fight to renounce her vows, and then had to go home and face the sticks and stones because in Ireland at that time the only thing than not having a priest or a nun in your family was to have somebody who was in and was now out.

So she was a great battler. And she went on a tremendously strong and intelligent woman.

BOGAEV: What was her style as an activist?

O'CARROLL: She was very much a woman's woman. And she was one of those activists who I would say in this day and age are very rare in that she actually followed through on what she believed.

I remember I went through - as you do, I went through my right-wing phase as a teenager. And so, "I have a great way of cutting down unemployment. You know, if you give me a machine gun, I'll go down and cut the queue in half."

And she said, "Yeah, that will be fine, except that there are people on unemployment who deserve it."

But I said, "But yeah, but there are so many that don't deserve it that are working in the black market and that are - and even those who are getting it," some of the men who were getting it weren't passing it on to their families. And the benefits weren't going to the kids.

And she said, "Look, if you have 100,000 people on the live register collecting social welfare and only 10 percent of those people get it or deserve it, but the only way you can get it to the 10 percent is to give it to the 90 percent, well then that's what you've got to do." And she believed that. And she was right. You've got to do whatever it takes to help marginalized people, even if it means sometimes buying off those who aren't.

BOGAEV: Now, your mom was the first woman elected to Parliament in Ireland's history.

O'CARROLL: Yes.

BOGAEV: Did she focus on women's issues in her career?

O'CARROLL: Very much. Yeah, her first - when elected to Parliament, the first thing she wanted to do was to get the word "bastard" taken off the Irish birth certificate. And the reason she was trying to do this is because when somebody went for a job in Ireland at that time, you had to have your birth certificate.

You had to give them your birth certificate. And I won't go into the boring details of why, because it was very much a carry-over from the Civil War politics of Ireland that existed at that time. But you had to have your birth certificate.

Now as soon as the word "bastard" or "illegitimate" came up on your birth certificate, that was it. You didn't get the job. It was Holy Catholic Ireland. And they just didn't give you the job.

So she wanted to get that removed to give everybody an equal chance of getting a job, regardless of what their parentage was. So eventually they got it changed to illegitimate. And then they - another concession they changed it to "father unknown." But all of those terms were just different terms for the same thing. "This child has no father," and usually meant this child's mother had a child out of wedlock. Oh, my God.

So she eventually redesigned the birth certificate. And she designed what we call the short certificate in Ireland. And it's acceptable for everything with the exception of a marriage license or a passport.

BOGAEV: My guest is Irish writer and comedian Brendan O'Carroll. This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

BOGAEV: We're back with Brendan O'Carroll.

When we left off, we were just talking about O'Carroll's mother, who was the first woman elected to the Irish Parliament.

Now, your mother wasn't the first person in your family to be politically engaged. Was it your grandfather who was in the IRA?

O'CARROLL: Yeah. Well, let me stress the old IRA. The modern IRA is a guerrilla force. The old IRA were kind of the Republican army, although he would have been a covert operator. He would have been a commando, for the want of a better word.

BOGAEV: He was...

O'CARROLL: Eventually, they caught up with him.

BOGAEV: ... He was murdered.

O'CARROLL: Yes, he was. He owned a small kind of a candy - kind of a drugstore, candy and cigarette store in Manor Street (ph) in Dublin. And although he was quite safe and his cover hadn't ever been blown, his three eldest sons, which would have been my father's three eldest brothers, were active soldiers. They weren't covert soldiers. And they were well-known.

And this British contingent came around to the house at 7:00 in the evening and said, "Look, we want to know where your three sons are." They would usually come at night. And what he would do is he'd led them into the store while he was putting on his boots, they'd help themselves to a pack of cigarettes or a couple of sticks of candy and then leave.

So he was putting on his boots and they said, "You know, we're coming back tonight. And if you don't have the information where your sons are, we'll kill you." So he took it with a grain of salt. And they arrived back at about 10:00 p.m., and the three sons were upstairs.

So when they heard the banging on the door, the sons escaped onto the roof and started to make their way across the rooftops and to get out of the area. My dad, who was 9 at the time, he went down with his father. And they didn't even give him a chance to put his boots on.

He opened the door, and then said, "Kneel down." And they put a gun to his head and they said, "So where are three boys?" And he said, "I don't know. And if I knew, I wouldn't tell you."

And they said, "Are you Sinn Fein?" And he said, "Born, and I'll die." And they said, "Then die."

And they shot him three times, once in the head, once in the chest, and one in the stomach. And then they shot my father who was only 9 and left him for dead.

But an ironic twist to it is there was a curfew on in Ireland at the time. You couldn't be out after dark. And none of the populace could be on the street after dark unless you had a special pass. And those people who were given special passes were journalists.

The bodies were lying out in the street because nobody would come out to the street. So bodies were laying in the street for two-and-a-half hours. And a journalist arrived on his way back from night shift. And he closed my grandfather's eyes and felt my father - and there was a very weak pulse in my father's arm.

So he picked up my father. And he ran to the nearest hospital, which luckily wasn't that far away, ran to the nearest infirmary to get my father in there. But he went home to breakfast that morning and told his family what he'd just done. And his little girl was listening to it. And she was the girl who eventually married my dad. And they became husband and wife.

BOGAEV: Huh.

O'CARROLL: It's a small world.

BOGAEV: I know your father died when you were very young. But were these stories that you heard then from his relatives?

O'CARROLL: Yeah, well, I have the newspaper cuttings of him. And again, it illustrates the newspaper presses of the time. And the story detailed how he had been shot and how they pinned the notice to his shirt when he was lying on the ground that said, "This man is a traitor to the queen, et cetera, et cetera." And you know, it was a punishment shooting.

And so I investigated it myself. And some of the newspapers of the time, one in particular, my grandmother, who was upstairs, was now afraid to come downstairs because she thought they were stealing the house. So the line in the newspaper which I thought was lovely was, "Trembling with fear, Mrs. O'Carroll betook herself to prayer."

Isn't that lovely?

BOGAEV: Hmm.

O'CARROLL: Isn't that charming? You wouldn't see that in the press nowadays.

BOGAEV: There are pretty extraordinary circumstances surrounding this journalist, the father of the woman your father married also, I understand.

O'CARROLL: Yes.

BOGAEV: What was his story?

O'CARROLL: Well, the story was that my mom's mother made an announcement in her home that she was about to marry a man who actually was older than her own father. So she was 18 at the time. And this guy was 44.

And her father wasn't having any of it. He said absolutely no way was he having any piece of this.

So they decided in secret that they would elope. And my grandmother over a couple of weeks, little by little, snuck her clothes out of the house. And when she had them all ready and all out, she was ready to go away and go to America. They were going to elope to America, which in that time, I'm talking about early 1900s, eloping to America meant never coming home. There was no four-hour, five-hour flights home.

So she sat up the night before she was to leave. And she was quite upset about her father, who she was at this stage probably really fighting with. The thought of saying goodbye to her mother the next day with her mother thinking she was just going to work and never seeing her mother again was very upsetting to her.

And while she was sitting up in the kitchen of the home, her mother came down and said, "Are you OK?" And she said, "Yeah, I'm OK."

So they made two cups of hot milk. And they sat there sipping hot milk. And in the middle of the conversation, my grandmother eventually told her mother what she doing, that she was eloping to America.

Well, her mother said, "Look, if your dad knew you were this serious, he would relent and you could have a proper marriage here in Ireland." So she convinced my grandmother to wake up her father, which she did. And he threw the head. He went bananas. I mean, he went berserk, but then calmed down and agreed hat rather than elope they should get married here in Ireland.

My grandmother went around, told her boyfriend, who was delighted. And he went down to Houston station in Dublin that day to sell the tickets that he'd bought for the elopement. And the tickets were to get the train to Cove (ph) in Ireland. At that time it was called Queenstown (ph) -- Kingstown (ph), to pick up the Titanic heading for the United States of America.

And he sold the tickets to a newly graduated police officer and his wife who just got married. And they went away - they were going away in a break. And he sold them to him.

So fast forward, you know, 35 years. And my mom is heading a police commission to try and establish a women's police force in Ireland, and the first in Europe. At that time, the attitude was women can work in the police force, but only, you know, as secretaries and whatever, but not in uniform. And she wanted to establish an Irish women's police force.

And she was up against a board of police chiefs, one particular hard nut guy. A real hard nut. He wasn't having any of it.

So after one Friday evening, she was walking through Steven's Green (ph). She bumped into this police chief. And he said, you know, it had been a pretty acrimonious day. So the conversation was kind of stand-offish.

So he said, "Good night, safe home." She said, "I'm not going home." She said, "I'm going over to the Shaborn (ph) Hotel, where I'm going to have a scotch on the rocks. And I'm going to tell the waiter to keep bringing it until I can't pronounce it."

So the policeman laughed and he said, "Well, maybe I'll join you for one or two." So she said OK.

So they started walking together. And on the way, she said, "There's a telephone in the hotel. You can ring your wife and tell her, you know, if you want to ring your wife, tell her you'll be late."

He said, "I'm a widower." She said, "I'm sorry to hear that. Is your wife long dead?"

"Well," he said. "Actually, she drowned on the Titanic. I was lucky to have survived. But she didn't make it."

And my mother stopped and said, "Did you buy the tickets off a gentleman named McHugh (ph)?" And he said, "Yes, I did." And she said, "That was my dad."

So they went into the Shaborn, had copious amounts of scotch. And the next day, history records, the Bangarda (ph), or the Irish Women's Police Force was founded.

BOGAEV: My guest is Brendan O'Carroll. He's one of Ireland's best known standup comedians. He's also an actor, playwright, and a best-selling author. He's written a trilogy about the experiences of a young widow with seven children in northern Dublin. The first book in the series, "The Mammy," is just out in paperback here in the U.S.

Before you got into show business, you spent about 18 years or so waiting tables. You were a painter. You were a hotel manager, right?

(LAUGHTER)

O'CARROLL: Yes.

BOGAEV: Through it all, were you dreaming of a job in comedy or in show business?

O'CARROLL: No, I really wasn't. I was quite contented and I continue to be quite contended with my life. And I continue to be amazed at how things are going because every day I wake up and I'm sure today's the day they're going to find out I'm just a waiter and they're all going to want their money back. But hopefully, it won't happen for a while yet.

No, you might notice a trend there that we've all ended up as waiters or chefs. And that's because when my mom did retire from politics, she had 46,000 pounds saved. At that time, you could buy a house in Ireland for 7,000 pounds.

But instead of buying a house for the family, we moved into a municipal owned house and rented it. And she bought two large houses on the south (unintelligible) and knocked them into one and opened a refuge for battered women, battered wives.

And we all worked in the refuge. That's, you know, we all cooked. We made beds. We served breakfast for the women and kids. And we spent years, all our childhoods, working in this refuge. So with the result that we all ended up in the hotel business, it came very natural to us to have service without civility (ph).

BOGAEV: How did you get into comedy?

O'CARROLL: Completely by accident. I had a partnership in a public house, in a pub in Dublin. And we'd leased this pub. And I had this partner. And he was a bit more shifty than I thought he was.

And so when I came back from holiday, we'd worked in it three years. In three years, you know, I hadn't taken a day off. So I took a two-week vacation for my sister's wedding in Toronto.

I came back from Toronto and he was gone. And the tables were gone. And the chairs were gone. And the light fittings were gone. And all the beer was gone.

And I left the pub and came back to a warehouse. So I was desperate. For the first time in my life, I owed more than I owned. And I went to a friend of mine who had entered the pub in Dublin. And I said to him, "Look," I said, "I need you to give me a gig."

And he said, "Doing what?"

I said, "Comedy."

And he laughed straight away. He went, "No way."

But I'd always told jokes at parties. And I knew at a party I could keep an audience, you know, entertained. But that's OK, because I'd be in the humor. But what if you're not in the humor? That's where the pro comes in, and I wasn't sure I could do it then. But there you go, it worked.

BOGAEV: Well, thanks very much. I really appreciate it. It was a pleasure talking with you.

O'CARROLL: Barbara, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for making it so easy.

BOGAEV: Brandon O'Carroll's book "The Mammy" is just out in paperback. The film version called "Agnes Browne" is featured at the Cannes film festival.

I'm Barbara Bogaev. And this is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Barbara Bogaev, Washington, D.C.
Guest: Brendan O'Carroll
High: Irish playwright, actor and stand-up comic Brendan O'Carroll. He's also the author of a trilogy of novels. The first is "The Mammy," followed by "The Chisellers" and "The Granny." O'Carroll also appeared in the film "The Van," and will be in the film version of "Angela's Ashes."
Spec: Entertainment; Movie Industry; Lifestyle; Culture; Brendan O'Carroll

Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 1999 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1999 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Brendan O'Carroll

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: MAY 18, 1999
Time: 12:00
Tran: 051802NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Camryn Manheim
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:30

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

BOGAEV: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Barbara Bogaev in for Terry Gross.

Let's get this straight right now. Camryn Manheim is not plus sized or robust or generously proportioned. She's fat, and she's not afraid to say it.

Manheim has appeared in the films "Happiness" and "Romy and Michele's High School Reunion." But she's best known for her role as Ellenor Frutt, the forceful yet sensitive attorney on the ABC legal drama "The Practice."

Here's a scene from the episode in which Ellenor finds out what another partner in the firm, Lindsey, is earning. She's outraged and tries to make another lawyer in the practice, Eugene, an ally.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR, PORTRAYING EUGENE: $242,000?

CAMRYN MANHEIM, ACTRESS: Am I overreacting? I mean, I know she brings in business. But to be making twice what we do?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Well, the partnership agreement is pretty clear. The formula is...

MANHEIM: Yes, the formula favors who brings in the business. But when we vote on new business and Lindsey getting one vote and Bobby getting two plus the tie breaker. With only three other voting partners, the two of them control...

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Ellenor...

MANHEIM: ... They sleep together, Eugene. Who are we kidding? She makes twice what we make!

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: You forget that we became partners because of her power play. It went to our benefit that...

MANHEIM: You're forgetting that it was a power play. Look at these numbers. Numbers are numbers. They are not subject to interpretation.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BOGAEV: Manheim has a new book about her struggle with fat, her outspokenness, the acting business, and self-acceptance. It's called "Wake Up, I'm Fat." It's based on her one-woman show.

She says that ever since she was a kid, she would talk to her fat as if it were a real person. And it was always a man.

MANHEIM: Every time I would have these conversations in my head, I would literally speak out loud. I would go, you know, "Why do you follow me around? Why are you here? Why did you pick me?"

And then in my head I would hear this male voice going, "I didn't pick you. You picked me."

And I would have these huge arguments in my room. I'd scream and cry. It was really fascinating to me as a kid. But I thought everybody had them, you know.

But the voice was male. And as I grew up and was able to, you know, have better insight to that, I realized it's because the pain that I suffered at the hand of this voice, its tyranny was quintessentially male. I just don't know any women who would ever make me suffer like that.

So I don't have that -- you know, those conversations much anymore because I feel that I'm very much in control of it. But as a kid, I was overwhelmed by voices, you know, beating myself up about my weight.

BOGAEV: You describe your parents as liberal activists. Were they progressive when it came to your weight?

MANHEIM: Well, you know, it's so funny. My parents are fantastic. I talk about in my book how I grew up with these liberal lefties, you know. And there's even a section where I say I got thrown in jail once.

I was protesting at a pro-choice rally. And you know, they just threw a bunch of us in jail as a statement. And I called my mom from jail. And I said, "Mom, I'm in jail."

And she said, "Oh, my God. What for?"

And I said, "Well, I got arrested for participating in a pro-choice rally."

And this is what she said. She went, "Oh, my God, honey. Mazeltov (ph)! That's wonderful!"

And you could hear her screaming to my father going, "Jerry (ph), Camryn got arrested for civil disobedience." My dad on the other end going, "That's great, honey. Go, go, go! Fight, fight, fight!"

I'm like, "Mom, I'm in jail. Help me get out."

And she's like, "No, honey. You stay in there and you make your point."

(LAUGHTER)

MANHEIM: So I grew up with that. You know, my parents were always protesting some nuclear site or bringing medical supplies to Cuba. We have so many photographs of them carrying picket signs. It's really quite a lovely legacy to have.

But I suppose the one thing always puzzled me as a kid as my parents were fighting for the underdogs all their life, they never really saw me as an underdog. And I needed so much to have somebody fight for me. So...

BOGAEV: What tack did your parents take? Did they try to pressure you outright to lose weight? Or did they go the more indirect route like keeping your portions small and hoping you didn't notice it or something?

MANHEIM: Wow, that's funny. My mom and dad did everything they could think of, you know. First of all, in defense of them, I just want to say there wasn't as much insight back then to child rearing as there is now. There's not -- wasn't as much focus on it. So my parents were doing what they thought was best, but inadvertently, you know, really screwed me up.

(LAUGHTER)

MANHEIM: Not that I blame them now. But my parents bribed me all the time. They would actually have me sign contracts like, "If you lose 15 pounds by March, we'll get you a new bike."

And you know, I was learning the value of a contract and what it meant to keep a contract. And I would sign it. You know, but I never really did anything. Just the contract itself was kind of exciting.

But when you're, you know, 11, it doesn't -- you know, losing weight and your self-image and how you fit on the planet doesn't make any sense. You're just doing it to please somebody else because you don't get it. It's very hard with children.

And my parents -- my mom took me to psychologists and to hypnotists. Everyone was struggling to try to figure out, you know, I think they blamed themselves. I know my mom blamed herself, you know, that she hadn't taken care of me better or, you know, made me gain all this weight, because I was a skinny kid so I think everyone was a little freaked out that I had gained a lot of weight.

But I really attribute it to the fact that I moved to southern California when I was 11. That to me is where it all began. You know, I had come from the Midwest where literally they don't even sell bikinis in the Midwest. It's just one piece and some of them are turtlenecks. You know, nobody shows their bodies in the Midwest. It's not -- no flesh. No flesh here.

And I, you know, I got off the boat in southern California. And people were walking around in bikinis. And then I'd go to the grocery store and they'd be shopping for food in bikinis.

And my instincts told me that, you know, shopping for Double Stuff Oreos in a bikini was a no-no. So I got fat. And I think it was some really deep subconscious way of never having to put on one of those bathing suits and do that. And I think that, coupled with a whole bunch of other things, you know, helped me put on the weight.

But I don't even care about that anymore. I don't want to go back and relive it and whose fault it is. I really just want to take what I have and do as much good with it as I can.

BOGAEV: You decided pretty early on you wanted to be an actress. Where did the idea come from?

MANHEIM: You know, that's really funny, I was at camp. I was at a commune. My parents were on a sabbatical. And I was at a commune. And I remember really vividly I was sitting under a big orchard tree and having a popsicle and a counselor came up to me and said, "Do you want to be in a play?"

And I said, "OK." And I went with her. And I didn't realize that you had to do it more than once. I just thought you know, you'd do it the one time and that was it. It didn't occur to me that I was making a, you know, a pact with them to spend the rest of my summer vacation doing a play.

But I did this play. And people clapped for me and came up to me afterwards and told me how great I was. And that was the most seductive drug I have ever come encountered, you know, have ever encountered. And I never looked back.

BOGAEV: When you're on stage, do you have a different relationship to your fat? A different consciousness of your body?

MANHEIM: Hmm. Wow. I don't -- that's a really interesting question. I know this, that when I was in acting school, I had no sense of my body and I acted from my neck up. And all my teachers said, you know, "You carry all your tension in your neck. You act with your face. You never include your body when you're acting."

And it took me many years to actually incorporate my body into my acting because I just, like I said, wanted to disappear, make it go away. And I think I also felt that if I used all my force from my body and my breath that I would, you know, I'd yell at somebody and they'd, you know, go through the wall.

So what would happen is, I'd end up being in an argument and instead of really, you know, screaming at somebody and telling them how angry I was, I'd end up going, "I'm so mad at you I can't believe it." And I would lose my voice. And I refused to let any energy come from me, because I think I was afraid of my power.

And when I finally found my power, I embraced it. And you know, there's no stopping me.

BOGAEV: You started doing speed...

MANHEIM: Yeah.

BOGAEV: ... in graduate school. Did you consider it a diet aid?

MANHEIM: Yeah, I never considered -- you know, when I was taking speed, and I took it because I had a -- I knew a friend who -- well, I knew a friend who dealt it. And one summer I was at her house and this woman came in to get some. And I was really, you know, intrigued by the whole thing because I had never done it.

And I happened to be back at that same woman's house about four months later when the woman came back to get more speed. And she had literally lost about 70 pounds. It was phenomenal. And I always had remembered that.

And when I started to get more and more pressure from the industry and from my school and from my parents and from my lovers to be thinner, I always kept in the back of my mind that I could go back to my girlfriend and ask her for some of that stuff. And I did.

And when I took it, it was entirely as a diuretic and not in any way to, you know, get, you know, high. So in fact, I don't really remember ever feeling particularly high, just that I didn't want to eat. And I lost so much weight so quickly.

And nobody ever, you know, inquired how I did that. No one ever seemed to be very concerned. You know, you'd think if someone lost a lot of weight who had had a lot of trouble with it earlier, one might say, "Are you OK? Are you doing this, you know, in a healthy fashion? We're just interested and curious about you."

But I never -- you know, it was me again just trying to hide and disappear and make sure nobody knew what was going on. And even my friends now who read my book or I tell this story to say, "I never knew. I never knew." So, yeah.

BOGAEV: What made you stop?

MANHEIM: That's a great question. I was lying on my bed one day. I have a 22-pound cat, Steve. And Steve likes to sleep on my chest. And he -- and every morning I push him off because I can't breathe.

And one morning I woke up and I couldn't breathe. And I pushed Steve off, only he wasn't there. And I realized that I couldn't breathe anymore. So that was one of the reasons why I quit smoking.

And ultimately, the reason why I quit speed is because I had a near-fatal overdose. I did too much, and I landed in the hospital. And I knew that it was, you know, it was D-day. There was no -- there was -- my body wasn't going to have anymore of it. My heart couldn't take it anymore. And I mean that in every sense of the word.

So I quit smoking and I quit doing speed. And I obviously rapidly put the weight back on because, you know, smoking and the speed, that combination was just so -- my metabolism was so screwed up. And I put the weight back on very quickly.

But this time, I was in therapy and really trying to work it out. And I was devoted to finding a healthy place for me to live. And, you know, mind, body and soul. And you can't do that when you're on speed.

BOGAEV: Camryn Manheim's book is "Wake Up, I'm Fat." She won an Emmy last year for her performance as Ellenor on the ABC drama "The Practice."

More after the break. This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

BOGAEV: We're back with actress Camryn Manheim. She plays Ellenor on ABC's "The Practice."

After you finished your post-grad work, you were out there auditioning. What were you generally offered in the way of parts? Were you the big breasted gal with the heart of gold?

MANHEIM: No, I never even got close to the big breasted gal with the heart of gold. That would have been good.

(LAUGHTER)

MANHEIM: Because that's so true, you know. I -- you know, people have this unbelievable perception of fat women. And usually, they're very self-loathing and self-deprecating. And my experience is they usually have like an upper respiratory problem and are wheezing, you know, "OK." You know, and they've got lots of Kleenex.

There's not a very nice view of fat women out there. You certainly never see, you know, big, beautiful, sensual, sophisticated, articulate women, you know, laid out in scripts. So when I was just starting, I was going up for prison wardens, for nurses, you know, for the Swedish masseur -- the masseuse, you know, who is like pounding on your back. And you're like, "Uh, uh, uh," and you're like, "No, stop it. I'm doing your back," you know, it's like...

(LAUGHTER)

MANHEIM: ... It's like these horrible, you know, stereotypes. And one time, I got a script that said -- the description of the character was, "We're looking," you know, "Susan, a morbidly obese woman of 200 pounds." And I thought, wow, this is so screwed up because I weigh over 200 pounds and I don't think of myself as morbidly obese.

So I walk into this audition. And I, you know, do my thing. And they say, "You know, you're very talented. And we like you very much. But you're really, you're not big enough for her."

BOGAEV: You're not fat enough.

MANHEIM: You're not fat enough. You are not grossly overweight, over 200 pounds. And that's when I said, "I just want to say that you've got this all wrong because I weight a lot more than 200 pounds, and if I'm not fat enough you have to rework your description here."

And I think that they were all, you know, shocked that I was over 200 pounds and I didn't need a walker to come into the room. So I started asking my agents to be more creative with me, to not set me up for the fat girl roles, mostly because I wasn't the fat girl they were looking for. They wanted that pathetic girl, yeah.

BOGAEV: You had an interesting strategy to buck the stereotype. You started auditioning for male parts.

MANHEIM: That's right.

BOGAEV: How does that work? Are you allowed to go on a call for a male part?

MANHEIM: Well, if you have an agent who is willing to stick their neck out for you and is willing to run that extra mile, they basically have to call the casting person and say, "I understand you have a call for a male lawyer. Would you consider seeing a woman?"

And some of them will, you know, be closed-minded and go, "No." And some might say, "Well, who do you have in mind?" And if that casting person knows their theater, they would have known about me, because I was kicking around in the theater for about 10 years.

And you know, my agent Mike (ph) said, "Well, you know what? I was thinking about Camryn Manheim. I think she could be a, you know, a ballsy attorney who can command the room." And maybe one out of 10 times a casting director would say, "You know what? Let's do it. We'll just put her name on the list and we'll bring her in. I won't even ask."

BOGAEV: What part did you originally audition for in "The Practice?"

MANHEIM: I originally auditioned for Ellenor. But you know, David Kelly wasn't that interested in me. He had somebody else entirely in mind. And I don't think David when he saw my -- went sent him a tape of a couple of things that I had done in the past, one of them being a lawyer that was originally supposed to be a man and turned out to be me. And I don't think he was really impressed by my tape.

BOGAEV: You did get an audition with David Kelly, the creator...

MANHEIM: Right.

BOGAEV: ... and the executive producer of "The Practice." Did you hit it off with him right away?

MANHEIM: Well, like I said, he was not that impressed with the tape that we sent him. He had actually expressed to the casting director that he felt that I was too conservative.

And the casting director said, "OK, you've got this girl wrong. She's acting on those tapes as a conservative lawyer. But you know, she's got 12 holes in her ear. She's got a tattoo. She rides a motorcycle. She is not conservative."

And I think, you know, David, just out of respect for his casting director, said, "All right, fine. I'll meet her."

So I get in there and David Kelly is an extraordinary man. And I'm not just saying that because he's my boss. First of all, he looks 12. And that will throw anybody off right away. You know, to me, he was Mr. Michelle Pfeiffer, because frankly I didn't really know who David Kelly was. All I knew was he was married to the most beautiful woman in the world. And I thought, well, he must be special in some way.

And not only is he 12, but he is a very -- he can be very shy. And we had this very awkward interview. And I knew right then that I was never going to work on a David Kelly show. I knew it. That was going to be the end of it.

So was literally halfway out of my chair, ready to leave, when I noticed that he had a cribbage board sitting next to his table. And I just said, "David, do you play cribbage?"

And he looked at me and he said, "I don't think you want to go there with me." Now, I don't know about you, but I am a tournament bridge player and a very major competitor. And my father was a mathematician. So the one thing you don't want to challenge me to is a game of cards.

And he turned to me and he said, "I don't think you understand. I play the computer." And I said, "I don't think you understand. I play for money."

And I said, "Why don't we just screw this audition right now and I'll play you right now for the part?"

And he hemmed and hawed a little bit. And he said, "I think you have a better chance of getting the part if you actually audition."

And that's when I said, "You know what? I can smell your fear. So if you want to play, I'll play you for the part. If not, we all know who is the fraidy cat."

And he laughed. And I knew that I had made some in-roads because it was a far cry from the nap he was taking earlier during our other part of the interview. But I got a script. And the description of the character said "big, ballsy woman walks in." And I knew right then that I had made some kind of impact on Mr. Michelle Pfeiffer.

BOGAEV: Actress Camryn Manheim. We'll continue our conversation after this break. This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

BOGAEV: My guest is actress Camryn Manheim. When we left off, she was telling us how she got the role of lawyer Ellenor Frutt on the ABC program "The Practice."

So you landed the part. And you write that on the first day on the set of "The Practice," your first scene called for you to walk to work with Bobby, the head of the firm played by Dylan McDermott (ph)...

MANHEIM: Right.

BOGAEV: ... And you were supposed to eat a donut on the way to work...

MANHEIM: Do you believe that?

BOGAEV: ... So how did that sit with you?

MANHEIM: You know, it's my first day. They've got this big Hollywood director directing the pilot. You know, he's a big deal. And I've never been -- you know, I've been on a couple of TV shows as a guest, but never as a principal. And I wasn't really quite sure of the rules about how soon into the, you know, project they could fire me, you know.

(LAUGHTER)

MANHEIM: I wasn't sure how the contract read. And it's the first scene. It's not only the first scene of my shooting, but it is actually the first scene of the pilot where Bobby and I -- Bobby and Ellenor -- are walking very briskly through the courtyard up to the courthouse.

So we're -- it's an establishing shot of these two characters and an establishing shot of the city we're in. It's a very important shot.

And, you know, the prop guy comes over and hands me a cup of coffee and a donut. And I'm like, "What are these for?" And he goes, "Oh, you know, they're your props." And I was mortified. I was so embarrassed. And I walked up to the director.

And I, you know, in my pretend being very cordial voice because I was pissed. And I said, "Listen, you know, I don't know if it's such a good idea for me to have a donut, you know, to introduce the character with a donut."

And he said, "Look, you don't have to eat it. I just want to give that we're-rushing-to-work kind of feeling. And you know, with the donut and the coffee and all the files, it just looks like you didn't have time for breakfast." And he made this plea. And I didn't know what to do.

I knew I couldn't really argue it because I wasn't sure if I could get fired. So I -- my mind was racing a mile a minute. And I walked over to Dylan, and I didn't really tell him what my motive was. But I just said, "You know, Dylan, don't you think my character would be like your right-hand woman?" because we were still trying to define who our characters were, because we didn't know.

"I think that I'd be holding all your files. I think I'd be holding your coffee and your donut and I just have everything and that, you know, you'd just be talking and I'll be there holding everything for me."

And he went, "That's great."

I said, "In fact, you know, maybe you could be just taking a bite of a donut and I'll be pulling it out of your mouth."

And he goes, "That's great. That's a great idea."

So I don't think Dylan really knew my ulterior motive. But he was -- he saved my butt. And the coolest thing about it is it's all there on tape for you to see. If you ever see that first episode of "The Practice," you can see the first shot is me stuffing a donut into Dylan McDermott's mouth.

And it's a victory. It's a huge victory, you know.

BOGAEV: Did you have to coach them in other -- because I'm talking to you I can say this, fat girl props? Did they come up with other things like that?

MANHEIM: Oh, yeah. You know, it's so funny, the stereotypes. You know, I'm like the fat police now. I have a badge. I whip it out. If you make a mistake, I'm like, "Hey, fat police, you can't do that, you know."

(LAUGHTER)

MANHEIM: I got to the set. There was a candy bowl on my desk. I went, "Are you crazy? You're going to put candy on the fat girl's desk? I'm going to tell you a little secret. Fat girls don't keep the candy on the desk, they keep it in the drawer."

I said, "If you really want, you know, me to have a relationship with the candy, put the candy on the skinny girl's desk and I'll look at it every time I walk by." But it's like I had to educate them. It's really -- it's very -- and I still have to educate people.

BOGAEV: You made a big impression with your "this is for all the fat girls" acceptance speech at the Emmys. Had you come up with that line a decade ago, something you always rehearsed in your head? "If I win the Nobel Peace Prize, that's what I'm going to say."

MANHEIM: That's a really good question. You know, I had come up with it that day when I was in hair and makeup. Because I was nominated, they as a treat give you somebody to do your hair and makeup, which is, you know, very nice.

And everyone is sitting around. And everyone was jabbing me going, "What are you going to say if you win?"

And I'm like, "Shut up. I'm not going to win."

And then I thought, you know, the votes are in. It's OK if I have a speech just in case, because to tell you the truth, a few months ago I had been at the Tonys.

And Rosie had been hosting them. And she gave everybody a lecture before the Tonys started. And she said, "Listen, you guys are from the theater. I don't want to see anybody reading papers. I want you to know who you're going to thank. Don't stumble. Be professional.

"It is such a drag when you come in here and you don't know what you're saying. Nobody likes it, and it's unflattering."

And I thought, "Oh, OK." I totally heeded her warning. And I thought at least I'll know who I want to say thank you to so I don't have to take out a $3,000 ad in "Variety" the next day just to make good with all those people.

So I was just kind of going over it. And then I said, "I'm thinking about, you know, thanking all my fat sisters." And you know, everyone kind of looked at me like I was out of my mind. And I said, "My big fear that it will be like, you know, the Sally Field's 'You like me, you really like me.'" And I didn't want that to happen.

So I said, "You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to feel the room. I've been on the stage all my life. I've spent the last, you know, 15 years devoted to the theater. I know when the audience is with me and when they're not. And you know, I can end the speech with, 'I just want everyone to sign my autograph book,' and I'll go out in a really fun thing. Or if I feel like they're with me, I'll dedicate this to my girls."

So I -- all those 15 years I had spent in the theater paid off because when I walked up those stairs and turned around and saw the balcony and that sea of people, and I just felt the global warming in that room. I really felt it. I knew that I had permission to say it and that it was the right time to do so. And let me tell you know, it has changed my life, you know, that I took the risk and said it.

BOGAEV: Does an award like an Emmy also change your personal life?

MANHEIM: I wish, honey. Let me tell you.

(LAUGHTER)

MANHEIM: I wish. You know, you think, oh, the Emmy changes your life. Well, I had a dentist appointment the very next day. And when I went in, I brought my Emmy. I said, "Look, I have an Emmy now. This can't hurt."

And you know what? It did. It's not like I can walk around with it and go, "I have an Emmy. Kiss me."

(LAUGHTER)

MANHEIM: But I am going to my 20th year high school reunion in July...

BOGAEV: With the Emmy.

MANHEIM: ... You think it would be tacky if I bring the Emmy?

(LAUGHTER)

BOGAEV: Go ahead, girl.

Camryn Manheim, thanks so much for doing the interview. It was really a pleasure to talk to you.

MANHEIM: Absolutely. It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I love your show.

BOGAEV: Camryn Manheim plays Ellenor in the legal drama "The Practice" on ABC.

(END)

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Barbara Bogaev, Washington, D.C.
Guest: Camryn Manheim
High: Actress Camryn Manheim. She recently won an Emmy Award for her role as attorney Ellenor Frutt on ABC's "The Practice." When she went up on stage to receive the award she joyously exclaimed "This is for all the fat girls!" She's written a memoir about her struggle to accept herself and her weight. It's called, "Wake Up, I'm Fat!"
Spec: Entertainment; Television and Radio; Lifestyle; Culture; Camryn Manheim

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End-Story: Camryn Manheim
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