Ian McLagan And The 'Faces' Of Rock And Roll

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..DATE:
20090410
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Fresh Air
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12:00-13:00 PM
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NPR
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Ian McLagan And The 'Faces' Of Rock And Roll

DAVE DAVIES, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I’m Dave Davies, senior writer for the Philadelphia
Daily News, filling in for Terry Gross.

Our guest, Ian McLagan, may not be a household name, but chances are
pretty good you’ve heard his keyboards. McLagan was among the first
generation of British rockers and had a long career, playing and
recording with Rod Stewart, the Rolling Stones, Bob Dylan and others.

He now lives in Austin, Texas, recording and playing at local clubs and
touring with his group, the Bump Band. The band has a new CD, which is
dedicated to the memory of McLagan’s wife, Kim, who died in an auto
accident in 2006.

(Soundbite of music)

DAVIES: Critic Dennis Cook(ph) called the album a bittersweet joy, full
of ghosts and longing, but also the great passion of the living. Here’s
the title track, “Never Say Never.”

(Soundbite of song, “Never Say Never”)

Mr. IAN McLAGAN (Musician): (Singing) I can feel your touch on my face.
I remember kissing you for the first time. I can sense you just out of
range, and I’ll be reminiscing you for the rest of my life.

Never loved anyone, I never loved anybody but you, baby. Never been
lucky, baby, never (unintelligible), but I’ll never say never again.

DAVIES: That’s “Never Say Never,” the title track from the Bump Band’s
new album. I spoke with Ian McLagan in 2004 about his memoir, “All the
Rage,” which describes his first four decades in rock, using drugs,
shagging groupies and trashing hotel rooms.

McLagan spent years playing with Rod Stewart’s band, Faces. Here’s
Faces’ only hit in the U.S., “Stay With Me.”

(Soundbite of song, “Stay With Me”)

Mr. ROD STEWART (Singer): (Singing) In the morning, don’t say you love
‘cause I’ll only kick you out of the door. I know your name is Rita
‘cause your perfume’s smelling sweeter since when I saw you down on the
floor, guitar. Won’t need to much persuading. I don’t mean to sound
degrading, but with a face like that, you got nothing to laugh about.
Red lips, hair and fingernails, I hear your a mean old Jezebel. Let’s go
up stairs and read my tarot cards. Stay with me, stay with me. For
tonight you better stay with me. Stay with me, stay with me. For tonight
you better stay with me.

DAVIES: Ian McLagan, welcome to FRESH AIR.

Mr. IAN McLAGAN (Musician): Thank you, Dave, nice to be talking to you.

DAVIES: You came of age at a time in the mid-‘60s, at really the dawn of
British rock and roll, and have been doing music all these years. When
you were a teenager in the early ‘60s and just scratching around in the
music business, it was a time when British rock was really just taking
form.

I mean, the Beatles and the Stones and the Who were all just getting
going. And give us a sense of what the scene was like. I mean, were you
aware that something kind of new and different and exciting was
happening?

Mr. McLAGAN: Oh yeah. I mean it was in the air. You know, I loved the
Stones. I used to see them every Sunday after I discovered them, you
know, and then I’d follow them. I’d catch them on a Wednesday somewhere
else, you know. And then I’d find they were playing somewhere else on
Saturday night and I’d go there.

And then when the Who came out, actually I met Pete pretty early on at
Jim Marshall’s(ph) drum shop, as it was, before he made guitar amps. I
met Mitch Mitchell. He used to serve behind the counter there. Later
ended up as drummer with Jimi Hendrix, of course.

And you know, there was a buzz going on, and Townshend was like, the
first time I met him, he said, So how are you doing? Like what’s your
bag? He was all interested in what I was doing. I was interested in what
he was doing.

And you know, we’d all heard the music. You know, we wanted to play it,
and then the next thing was to try and get gigs, and then you know, I
became manager and a kind of agent of my band, although I wasn’t the
singer. I was just the rhythm keyboard player.

But it was very exciting, just constantly trying to get gigs and playing
and finding out where the clubs were and checking other bands out and
thinking they ain’t that good, we’re better than them, you know. It was
– I was too committed to know that, you know, I was - I was just having
the best time.

DAVIES: You were listening to a lot of American blues. Were a lot of
British teenagers into that then? I don’t think American kids were so
much. Where did you get the records?

Mr. McLAGAN: Well, that was – they were difficult to find. You know, the
thing is one night, Humphrey Lyttelton had a jazz program. I think it
was on Monday night on radio, was BBC 1, I suppose, it was then. And he
played “Muddy Waters Live at Newport,” “Hoochie Coochie Man.”

And that pretty much changed my life. That album, which I eventually
bought with great difficulty from the local record store in Hounslow,
where I lived, that and Thelonious Monk, “Monk’s Moods,” just changed my
life.

And I figured, well, Monk’s a great blues player, and whoever is playing
with Muddy is a great blues player, and that was of course Otis Spann,
and Otis is probably my main influence on the piano, you know.

DAVIES: So you’re with the Muleskinners. They split up, and you find
yourself bandless and then get recruited to an established group with a
record contract, right? Small Faces? How did that happen?

Mr. McLAGAN: Well, strangely, I was in another band in between, but they
weren’t that keen to work, and the van broke down one night, and they
kind of laughed, and we were supposed to be going up to Scotland, which
is, you know, like a six or seven hour drive back then, before the
motorways, you know.

And so we set off again the next night, the next afternoon, and the van
broke down again. I said that’s it. I quit. And so I was depressed, and
I went to see my girlfriend that night, and on the way back I bumped
into a friend of mine, Phil, who said so how’s the band? And I said, oh,
I just left. And he said, oh, you should join the Small Faces.

I said, oh yeah, that’s very funny, Phil (unintelligible) sarcastic. And
the next morning their manager called me and that afternoon I joined the
band.

DAVIES: Was that just a coincidence?

Mr. McLAGAN: Yeah. He just – because they had had that one hit, you see,
and I’d seen them on television and my dad said check this band out,
they’re great. And I looked at them. I thought, boy, they’re great, a
great singer, and they look great. I thought, that’s the sort of band
I’d like to be in, you know. And within, you know, a few months I was a
member. It felt like I was just plucked out of nowhere.

DAVIES: The group had a certain visual style. What did you look like?

Mr. McLAGAN: Oh, we were pretty sharp. I mean, apart from anything, we
were all the same height. None of us were over 5’6”.

DAVIES: Thus the Small Faces.

Mr. McLAGAN: Yes, but although the guy I replaced was taller, and that
wasn’t why they threw him out. He just wasn’t much of an organ player,
but they read a review of the band I was in previously, where – and they
quoted me as saying – well, they quoted – the reviewer said that I
played really good, but they had a photo of the lead singer, who was
much handsomer than me, and they thought, well, he’s obviously a great
player and he looks great. Let’s get him.

And when they met me, they were a bit surprised by the change in face,
but I was the right size.

DAVIES: Your big hit in America with Small Faces was “Itchycoo Park,”
and maybe we should hear that. Tell us about that song.

Mr. McLAGAN: Well, strangely enough, Steve and Ronnie, Steve Marriott
and Ronnie Lane, wrote together, and it was hard to break into that
partnership, although occasionally I would write with kind of a little
germ of mine that Ronnie would help, and then that would come out as
Marriott, Lane, McLagan.

I could never just separate them, but in fact I didn’t realize that
Ronnie Lane wrote that song, almost as one of his. You know, the way a
partnership works, it’s one or the other mainly, and the other one
helps.

Well, that was a Ronnie Lane composition, and years later, when I was
living in L.A., he called me from Austin in 1990 and asked if I would
tour Japan with him, and I said I’d love to. I said just one thing,
Ronnie. What’s that? I said let’s not do “Itchycoo Park.” I said, I’m
sick of that song. He said, But Mac, I wrote that. I said, I’m sorry, I
hate it.

(Soundbite of laughter)

DAVIES: Do you really hate the song?

Mr. McLAGAN: Yeah. Well, see, I don’t think it is all too beautiful. I
just – I mean, I’m a lucky guy, I’m a happy guy, but I don’t think it’s
all too beautiful.

DAVIES: And that’s so much like most of the music you were doing.

Mr. McLAGAN: Right.

DAVIES: Well, with apologies to our guest, Ian McLagan, let’s hear
“Itchycoo Park” from Small Faces.

(Soundbite of song, “Itchycoo Park”)

Mr. STEVE MARRIOTT (Singer): (Singing) Over bridge of sighs to rest my
eyes in shades of green. Under dreamin' spires, to Itchycoo Park, that's
where I've been. What did you do there? I got high. What did you feel
there? Well I cried. But why the tears there? I'll tell you why. It's
all too beautiful. It's all too beautiful. It's all too beautiful. It's
all too beautiful. It’s all too beautiful. I feel inclined to blow my
mind, get hung up feed the ducks with a bun. They all come out to groove
about. Be nice and have fun in the sun. Tell you what I'll do…

DAVIES: That was “Itchycoo Park” by Small Faces. On keyboards was my
guest, Ian McLagan. “Itchycoo Park” is, it’s a song that’s sort of more
in the psychedelic vein rather than the blues that you were playing. Is
that what you don’t like about it?

Mr. McLAGAN: Well, it was – yes, but it’s the – you know, we were,
Ronnie, Steve, and I took acid in 1966 and took acid again the next week
and took a lot of acid over a period of time, and the music did change,
and I think in some ways for the worse.

I mean, it’s like movies made around that time are – some of them are so
hopeless, you can’t – I can’t look at them now. They’re just so
desperately trying to prove that they’ve taken acid, you know, and it’s
all too beautiful was the chorus of “Itchycoo Park,” and it’s that whole
thing.

You know, I don’t think you have to prove it. You know, the experience
was pleasant, and now let’s move on. Let’s go back to what we were
doing, but we never did, really.

DAVIES: It’s also remarkable that you were in a band that had a lot of
hits, I mean 14 hits in the UK, if I remember, and yet you didn’t make
any money. You couldn’t even afford your own apartments for a long time.
Why?

Mr. McLAGAN: We had management. We had very good management, or should
we say thieves? We were just unlucky in that way. I mean, we were
enjoying ourselves, you know, making the music and touring, but we never
actually managed to get any royalties, publishing or any money from the
gigs.

We were paid a wage of 20 pound a week, and that’s pretty much – we were
living in a house together at that time. That was paid, and our food was
paid, and our clothes were paid, and that was about it. So we got out of
it.

DAVIES: You were awfully young. I mean, you were, what, 20, 21, and some
of the guys were younger.

Mr. McLAGAN: I was the oldest, yeah. Kenny was 16. You know, I mean, we
were ignorant about business. I mean, boy. I mean, we were so thrilled
to be able to, you know, play music, really, that it never occurred to
us.

We never had a bank account, and our parents kind of suspected it and
went to have a meeting with our manager, Don Arden(ph), and he threw a
red herring in front of them. He said people in show business spend
money and they spent theirs, and anyway they’re on drugs.

And the parents then just left the office so downhearted, you know, and
of course we weren’t on drugs. We were smoking pot.

DAVIES: Right, but…

Mr. McLAGAN: I mean, it was suggested – the suggestion was, and what
they thought, is that we were on heroin or something. You know, it was –
that was the end of the inquiry into where the money was, you know.

(Soundbite of laughter)

DAVIES: And you were generating a fortune for them, right?

Mr. McLAGAN: Well, yeah, we were. But we were then on 50 pound a week,
so I suppose that was some improvement. We still didn’t get record
royalties. In fact, we didn’t get record royalties from Immediate until
1997 and from Decca Records, which was the earlier period, until 1991 I
think it was.

DAVIES: My guest in musician Ian McLagan. We’ll talk some more after a
break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

DAVIES: Our guest is keyboard player and singer Ian McLagan. His group,
the Bump Band, has a new CD called “Never Say Never.”

Well, Ian McLagan, we were talking about your association with the group
Small Faces, which split up when its lead singer, Steve Marriott,
decided to leave and join Peter Frampton in a group, Humble Pie, and
then you recombined and formed the group Faces.

You had four albums and a lot of hits. You toured in the States. Let’s
listen to a track. I thought we would listen to “You’re So Rude,” which
is a song you collaborated on with the late Ronnie Lane. Do you want to
say a word about this tune?

Mr. McLAGAN: Yes. I only wrote one song with Ronnie, actually, in all
the years we were together, and he came over to my house, and I had a
beautiful harmonium, a pump organ, in my – in the hallway of the house
because I was having work down on the studio, and I couldn’t get it in
there at that moment.

So it was – you had to kind of squeeze past it, and he said, oh, that’s
nice. I said, yeah, listen to how I play it, and I played him something
I had written on the harmonium. And then he sat down, he wrote the
lyrics to “You’re So Rude” in about 10 minutes flat, and it was a true
story how he and his girlfriend were caught at it.

He suggested (unintelligible) just got caught in the rain. Anyway, it’s
a true story.

DAVIES: Okay, so let’s listen to “You’re So Rude.” This is the group
Faces. It was originally recorded on “A Nod is as Good as a Wink,” and
is on the new four-CD box set.

(Soundbite of song, “You’re So Rude”)

Mr. RONNIE LANE (Singer): (Singing) My mom, she likes you. She thinks
your swell, got the makings of a dance-hall girl, your low-cut frock and
your birds nest hair stepping up heels and the way that you smell. She
says to take you back to see my folks again on Sunday. Why it looks as
though there’s nobody in. They've all gone out to see my Auntie Renny.
Don't you worry, you just come right in. I'm sure we'll pass the time
'til they come home. Well let me take your coat, take off your shoes,
warm your toes, try the sofa.

DAVIES: That was “You’re So Rude,” from the group Faces. It’s included
on the new CD box set produced by our guest, Ian McLagan, who played
keyboards.

You know, one of the things that I like about that track, apart from the
organ that you play at the top, is that it is not Rod Stewart on the
vocal, who people have long associated with Faces, but Ronnie Lane, the
late Ronnie Lane, the bass player. He gives a great delivery there,
doesn’t he?

Mr. McLAGAN: Yes, he does. I mean, it’s tongue-in-cheek. You know, you
can hear his smile, you know. He was a very cheeky boy, Ronnie, and I
met the girl in question, funny enough, previously. I met her when we
were in Small Faces together.

But he was always a prolific writer with the Faces and Small Faces, and
I figured this box set should honor him as much as anything because he’s
not around. He’s not here to be honored in person, and he’s very much
loved by all who knew him and know him or know his music. And so the
album, the actual box set, is dedicated to Ronnie.

DAVIES: You played with Bonnie Raitt and a whole lot of other artists,
and you became a fairly sought-after session musician, I guess. You
declined a chance to play with the Grateful Dead. Why was that?

Mr. McLAGAN: Well, I didn’t actually decline the chance. It was a
chance. I wasn’t given the gig. A friend of mine, who was a friend of
Jerry Garcia’s, said they’re looking for – their current keyboard player
has died, and they’re looking for someone else.

He said you could – they want you to play to a tape and submit it, you
know, and he said you’d make a quarter of a million a year. You know,
you could live anywhere you want, blah, blah, blah. and I was actually
on vacation at the time in San Diego with my wife and our dogs, and I
went out and bought a Grateful Dead CD, and my wife went out to do some
shopping and came back to the hotel room, and I was sitting in a blue
funk in a brown study in a green swarm of hell.

And she said, What’s the matter? I said, I can’t play this music, it
sucks. I mean just my personal taste, I didn’t understand it, didn’t get
it. You know, I still don’t, really. I mean, I know they make a lot of
money, and they’ve got lots of fans. Sorry if I’ve upset anyone, but you
know…

DAVIES: Wasn’t your cup of tea.

Mr. McLAGAN: It wasn’t my cup of tea, no more than Phish, all that jam
band. That’s so tediously boring. But you know, I like a tune. I like a
tune and a singer and a solo, and now more of the tune. Yeah, I just
couldn’t even do it, you know.

DAVIES: Ian McLagan, recorded in 2004. We’ll hear more in the second
half of the show. McLagan’s current group, the Bump Band, has a new
album called “Never Say Never,” and they’ll start an eight-city tour on
April 28th. I’m Dave Davies, and this is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of song, “Miss You”)

DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. I’m Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. We’re
listening to my interview recorded in 2004 with veteran British rocker
Ian McLagan. He played for years with the group Faces and wrote a memoir
called the “All The Rage.” His current group, the Bump Band, has a new
album called “Never Say Never.” Well, Ian McLagan when Faces split up
you were known in the music business. You’d stayed in touch with the
Stones, with Mick Jagger with Keith Richards, and they eventually
invited you to collaborate on a recording session and go on tour. What
was that like?

Mr. McLAGAN: Well, actually when the album came out, which was “Some
Girls,” and I’d played on “Miss You” and “Just My Imagination,” when
they started to tour, was getting ready to tour in 1978, Keith asked me
if I would tour with them and I said boy yeah. And I jumped on a plane
and toured with them and then stayed in America. Well, I went back to
England but then we moved straight after that. I just – I liked America.
That - England was – there was nothing going on for me, you know.

DAVIES: I read a your book that you had played on those recording
sessions for the Stones’ track “Some Girls” and shocked to discover that
they never paid you for that session.

Mr. McLAGAN: Well, they did you know, I mean – I was there as a guest
you know, I mean I was, you know, I wasn’t really - I hadn’t been hired.

DAVIES: Okay.

Mr. McLAGAN: I was there to socialize, really. But I said to Mick, is
there any chance of getting cash? And I think he gave me the equivalent
- it was either 120 francs or 120 pounds - didn’t really pay for my cab
fare, but.

DAVIES: So you eventually ended up touring with the Stones, which must
have been thrill. I mean, you admired them all these years.

Mr. McLAGAN: Absolutely, yeah.

DAVIES: But you had couple of awkward moments with Mick Jagger where he
talked to you about payment, what you wanted to get paid, right?

Mr. McLAGAN: Well, yeah I mean, Mick…

DAVIES: I mean, these guys were multi-millionaires at this point,
weren’t they?

Mr. McLAGAN: Yeah. Well, this was at the end of the tour. They wanted to
record in LA. And so I hung around there for a couple of weeks while we
waited to get in the studio and Mick had a conversation with me about
money over a game of pool. And he’s not really a drinker, Mick, you
know, and I am a professional drinker and so we had a beer together. And
the reason he came over to the house was to discuss business, but I
didn’t know, I just thought he wanted a game of pool. Well, he got more
and more drunk and he said so how much do you want? And I said well how
long you want to record? And he said two weeks. I said 15 grand. And he
said I’m not paying you 50. He thought I’d said 50 instead of 15. He
said I’ll give you 20 and that’s the end of it. And I said okay. But of
course the next day he completely forgot about this conversation. And
then you know, we screwed around for several days with his employees, as
to, you know, deciding what will I be paid, and eventually I did get my
15 but not after a lot of argument.

(Soundbite of laughter)

DAVIES: A lot of the guys that you shared, you know, a touring,
recording and performing life with - I mean Ron went on to some pretty
remarkable things. I mean, Ron Wood still plays with the Stones. Rod
Stewart, you know, does his thing out there and plays at arenas. I mean,
you do music but at a sort of more modest scale, there in Austin and I’m
kind of wondering do you like it better that way or do you wish you were
out there in front of these huge crowds doing it differently?

Mr. McLAGAN: It’s such a good question, you know, when I first joined
the Small Faces I was so happy because as I said I was playing every
night, playing with people who wanted to play. And we’d play after gigs.
We’d just play, you know, in a hotel room. We’d just, like, be playing,
talking, listening to music. Well, I did an interview for a magazine
called Beat Instrumental, which was about gigs and musicians, and, you
know, in the current scene, back in ‘65. And they asked me, what did I
see in the future, you know, and it’s amazing what you say sometimes.
And I actually said this, I said, I picture myself in a smoky club
playing rhythm and blues. Well, hello, it came true and I shouldn’t
complain because I love it still. I just wish I could make more money at
it but it’s what I love to do.

DAVIES: You fell in love with the Hammond organ – in fact, there was one
point, when the Faces broke up, that you went across continents trying
to retrieve one you had. Are they still around, I mean are you, just,
can you, can you still find and play a Hammond.

Mr. McLAGAN: Yeah. I’m actually - there to be found in a lot of
churches. And sadly, when a church for whatever reason goes downhill,
they sell their Hammonds or other organs. And they’re often in perfect
condition because they’ve never traveled, you know. My, I call her
Betty, but I’ve had her since 1969 - that’s what you hear on “Maggie
May” and on all the Faces stuff and that’s what you hear on my records.
She’s been with me all that time but she’s really too – I mean, she’s
been around the world a few times, she’s been beaten up and, you know,
she’d been damaged a little bit more than some older inn rooms but you
can still find them. I found a beautiful one in 1980, no 1994 or ‘93 for
$500, that’s - she’s my pride and joy. She’s in my studio at home and
will never tour.

DAVIES: Well, do you play Betty because of the sentimental attachment or
does she have a sound that you just can’t get anywhere else?

Mr. McLAGAN: She, well, I’ve worked on her. I mean over the years, she’s
a bit of a hybrid. She’s a racehorse, you know, not just a plow horse.
She’s built for speed and built for sound, built for volume. She can,
you know, electric guitarists like to think they’re loud, you know, they
can’t top me.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. McLAGAN: I can finally compete.

DAVIES: Well, Ian McLagan, thanks so much for speaking with us.

Mr. McLAGAN: Dave, it’s been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for
having me.

DAVIES: Ian McLagan recorded in 2004. His current group, the Bump Band,
has a new album called “Never Say Never.”
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*** TRANSCRIPTION COMPANY BOUNDARY ***
..DATE:
20090410
..PGRM:
Fresh Air
..TIME:
12:00-13:00 PM
..NIEL:
N/A
..NTWK:
NPR
..SGMT:
Denis Leary: Firefighters and Fiery Tempers

DAVE DAVIES, host:

Comic actor and writer Denis Leary first became known for his short
corrosive satirical beats on MTV. Now he’s co-creator, executive
producer, co-writer and star of the series “Rescue Me.” The fifth season
has just premiered on FX. Leary plays Tommy Gavin a New York City
firefighter who’s constantly risking his life to save others but
constantly letting down his friends and family and getting into fights.

In this scene from next week’s episode, he’s facing expulsion from the
fire department because of his reckless behavior and he’s sent to meet
with the department shrink.

(Soundbite of TV show, “Rescue Me”)

Unidentified Man (Actor):(As character) Let’s see, what do we got here?
You dress up in your dead cousin’s gear and going on calls with your
crew and the crew another on an other shift. You’d hide in the truck and
you’d go out on calls as your dead cousin. This dead cousin thing: what
is up with that?

Mr. DENIS LEARY (Actor): (As Tommy Gavin) After 9/11 – well, it’s kind
of complicated but basically in a nut shell, I suppose my wife,
drinking, pills - lot of pills, lot of drinking, and my brother and my
wife had an affair, and he’s dead now so. And then I quit drinking and
pills and everything so…

Unidentified Man (Actor):(As character) Okay, get out of here.

Mr. LEARY (Actor): (As Tommy Gavin) I didn’t kill him…

Unidentified Man (Actor):(As character) Yeah.

Mr. LEARY (Actor): (As Tommy Gavin) …my brother.

Unidentified Man (Actor):(As character)It’s okay, go.

Mr. LEARY (Actor): (As Tommy Gavin) You know, guys like you, I mean, you
know, you just - I get what four seconds to explain myself. I’ve been
fighting fires…

Unidentified Man (Actor):(As character) (unintelligible) go back to
work. You’re cleared. Case dismissed.

Mr. LEARY (Actor): (As Tommy Gavin) Go back to the fire house?

Unidentified Man (Actor):(As character) Look, Mr. Gavin you’re a vet.
You’ve got all the years, the saves, the medal recommendations…

Mr. LEARY (Actor): (As Tommy Gavin) That’s right.

Unidentified Man (Actor):(As character) Whack job or not, the department
can’t afford to lose guys like you. Maybe you’re little nuts, yeah, but
all the guys we lost in the towers, all guys who got out after, you
know, there’s just too much fresh blood on the job right now. We need
you.

Mr. LEARY (Actor): (As Tommy Gavin) Well, thank you. So, I’m, I’m not
crazy.

Unidentified Man (Actor):(As character) Oh, you’re crazy. You’re like
Margot Kidder hiding in the bushes kind of crazy. But, you know, if your
job is to run into fire, you’ve got to be a little crazy, right?

Mr. LEARY (Actor): (As Tommy Gavin) Right.

DAVIES: Denis Leary also has a book released last year called “Why We
Suck,” and he’s on a new comedy tour. Terry spoke to Denis Leary in
2007.

GROSS: Denis Leary welcome back to FRESH AIR. “Rescue Me” was inspired
by a couple of firefighters you were close to. Would you tell us
something about them?

Mr. LEARY: They’re - one is the technical advisor to “Rescue Me” – an
old, old friend of mine Terry Quinn(ph) who’s been in New York City
firefighter for 20 some odd years now. And he is one of my oldest
friends and much like Tommy Gavin has no interest in becoming an officer
or anything other then a truck guy, which means the guys who actually,
you know, run off into the fire, you know, when they jump off the rig at
an event. He’s an action guy. So he’s also our technical advisor in
charge of all of our big fire scenes.

And the other guy who shall remain nameless who’s a good friend of mine
as well - whenever I see him, whatever he’s talking about in terms of
his personal life becomes fodder for the upcoming episodes of “Rescue
Me,” because he lives such a rich and interesting life. And two of those
guys combined are who Tommy Gavin is. He lives and dies to fight fires.

GROSS: You have a cousin who is killed in a fire…

Mr. LEARY: Yeah.

GROSS: …and did you - do you think he ever thought that will happen to
him?

Mr. LEARY: He used to say when his wife or his mother or anybody would
say, you know, what are we going to do if something happens to you
because he was considered a, quote unquote, “fireman’s fireman”, like,
he was the first guy in. The night that he died he was filling in for a
guy who had done a favor for him and he was supposed to be driving the
truck but he hated to staying with the truck while guys went into a
fire. So he traded with another guy, and he said, you know, I don’t want
to sit with the truck if something happens tonight. I want to be in, in
the building.

So, he wasn’t supposed to be working that night and he wasn’t supposed
to be actually going into the building but he was because that’s where
he wanted to be. He was looking for two homeless people. He used to say,
you guys are just going to have to deal with it if I get killed. See,
the amazing part of that story with my cousin is not just that he went
into a burning, you know, inferno of a cold storage warehouse building
that the windows have been bricked up - he went in looking for two
homeless people. He got trapped with another guy, the kid that I grow up
with, that we grew up with, named Tommy Spencer who was outside when
they closed the building down.

The chief said nobody else is going in, it’s too big. We’re shutting the
building down. Tommy Spencer tied three other guys to himself and he
walked up to the chief who was blocking the doorway and said get out of
the way or I’ll knock you down. I’m going in to get Paul and Jerry. And
they went in and within, you know, minutes the building went up a second
time. That is an amazing amount of courage. There was a sense of
brotherhood and just, to begin with, the sense of brotherhood towards
your fellow man - two homeless people that you don’t even know - and
then the sense of, well, we know this probably not going to work but we
have to – to make that last stand to see if we can get those guys out.

GROSS: I’d imagine that, you know, starring in, doing some of the
writing and of course also producing the series “Rescue Me” has you
thinking a lot about death. And about, kind of, self-destructive
impulses, because like your character Tommy he deals with life and death
everyday in putting himself in life threatening situations to rescue
people. At the same time he flirts with the death through smoking and
alcohol and really stupid risks he takes in his personal life.

Mr. LEARY: Yeah. Yeah. I think part of the attraction to writing these
guys was the male ego as it exists in almost every man and then the male
ego as required for the type of courage that this job takes. One of the
things that the male ego does when mortality bumps up against it is you
want to have sex, you want to prove, I’m vital, I’m alive. Look at me,
I’m alive. And these guys are living this crazy job that has everything
to do with life and death but nothing to do with life as we know it:
love, death and taxes, you know - the way we look at it.

So that’s where I find it to be very rich and this – it never ceases to
amaze me, these stories, like - a buddy of mine tell me a story today,
who’s a firefighter. He was at work he got a phone call from his
brother. And his brother said, I got some bad news and he said what is
it. He said dad died. He said, when – like, about five minutes ago. And
he said, all right, and he went back into the bunk room, he fell asleep.
The alarm went off an hour later, he went to a fire. Never dealt with
his father’s death because he dealt with death. And then one day he was
reading “Flag Of Our Fathers” last year, and he collapsed for two days
and basically couldn’t stop crying. You know, 10 years after his father
had died - because he’s so afraid of letting the other emotions about
the girl that he didn’t save here, the guys that came out of 9/11 like
him and the guys who didn’t, guys that he knew and loved and so many
emotions that they – they’re like, you have to be an animal. You have to
be like a shark. You have to keep moving forward – yeah, everything’s
behind me, everything’s behind me, everything’s behind me. That’s an
interesting story. I mean, what’s going happen? What’s going to happen
to Tommy Gavin when he stops moving?

GROSS: Yeah, well…

Mr. LEARY: …and you know what…

GROSS: Well, here’s this character who is really attracted to extremes,
you know, so like, you know, rescuing people and fighting fires and
stuff. But those extremes don’t match in, say, the life as a spouse or
as a father and he has real trouble in those areas.

Mr. LEARY: Yeah, and most of the guys that I know, even the guys that
this character is based on, have those same…

GROSS: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mr. LEARY: …issues. But, you know what, if you ask them, if you cornered
them - you wouldn’t even have to corner them, you could just ask them,
they’ll say that’s what makes them a great firefighter. One of the
things they talk about women compartmentalizing emotions and approaches
and how they live and - that’s one of the things about, like even my
cousin, Jerry. He knew that there was a chance every time he was, you
know, at work that he wasn’t going to come back and he was okay with
that, even though he loved his kids and his wife. And his wife
understood when she met him that that’s what he wanted to be. He knew
that was a box in his head, that this is always a possibility and it
doesn’t matter, I still will take the chance. It’s like rolling dice,
you know.

GROSS: Has it been like oddly therapeutic to write your character of
Tommy in “Rescue Me”? Because he has so many of the extremes of the male
ego that you’ve written about and probably some of which you’ve had…

Mr. LEARY: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: …and probably some of which you’ve tried to like undo, but like
by putting all of these extremes, you know, like the fighting, the…

Mr. LEARY: Yes.

GROSS: …the drinking, the…

Mr. LEARY: Yes.

GROSS: …inability to have him, like, really enduring emotional
relationships…

Mr. LEARY: Yes.

GROSS: By putting that in him, can you stand back and say, I see where
the problem is?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. LEARY: Well, it has helped me definitely. It has helped me certainly
in terms of grief. I lost so many people in such a short period of time,
from the time my cousin was killed in that fire through 9/11. And then
one of my best friends on the planet had - he dropped dead…

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. LEARY: …January of 2002, right after 9/11. It helps in that regard,
it does. What’s good is that the two guys I said that I based the
character on are like my same age and we – I was talking to one of them
this morning just about some very, very personal stuff and the two of us
were comparing notes on stupid things that we’ve done in relationships
and talking about our kids and raising our kids. And the good thing is
that, at this age, we’re starting to realize what idiots we have been
and are potentially capable of being again. And I think that’s a thing
that I was never a part of my father’s generation of men, like, you got
– even me, I’m talking to this really tough, great New York City
firefighter and he’s telling me things - it’s like I’m talking to my
shrink. And he’s telling me things that are ringing bells in my head and
I’m going, yeah, yeah, you’re – God, are you right. We do need to be
more emotionally available for the women in our lives and for our
daughters and for our sons. And then an alarm – I hear an alarm go off
because he’s at the fire house. He says, I’ll call you back later and
he’s going out on the call. So, there’s hope that we – as men, that we
will actually - I can’t believe I’m 50 and just learning a lot the stuff
that I’m learning.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. LEARY: I mean, I look back and I think what a moron I was. I mean,
what did I think…

GROSS: Give me an example.

Mr. LEARY: …you know, what was…

GROSS: Give me an example -give me an example of what a moron you were.

Mr. LEARY: Well, I mean - I’ll give you an example. A year ago, I got
into a fight with a cab driver. It was just ridiculous, downtown, which
ended up with nothing except him locking himself in the car and me
trying to get in. And then me realizing that there are people with
camera phones and that I’ve achieved nothing except…

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. LEARY: …if I – if I wasn’t in shape I’d probably have a heart attack
and then I was late for work. So, I drove away going, now, what did I
gain there? My face is red, my blood pressure is high, my heart’s
racing, I’m angry as hell and all I’ve got is a, you know, a bruise on
my hand and nothing else.

GROSS: What was fight with the taxi cab driver about?

Mr. LEARY: All right, so now you want to get to the core of the male
ego?

GROSS: Yes.

Mr. LEARY: I’m on my way to work. I’m driving. It’s early, early in the
morning. I’m driving to the set of “Rescue Me” and, you know - this is
why they really don’t allow me to drive myself to work anymore, by the
way.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. LEARY: And I’m driving myself to work and there’s nothing but green
lights in front of us because there’s no traffic. It’s like, you know,
it’s 5:45 or something in the morning. And he’s strolling along as like
10 miles an hour. He’s looking to find a fare. And I beep the horn
because we got four green lights in front us. And he short breaks me, he
puts the break on and I just miss hitting his back end. Then he speeds
up to the next, still a green light, the next block and I come up behind
him and he short breaks me again. So, I squealed to stop and he goes a
third time. Well, the third time, I’m not proud to say it, but it was -
I think any jury of my peers would be on my side, you know, like 12
Denis Learys.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. LEARY: I hit him. I tapped him from behind. And of course we both
got out. And he started screaming in half English, half Pakistani
because he’s not an American citizen. I - actually that’s where I
started, I was like, get your license and registration. That’s when he
panicked because he didn’t have one because he’s not a citizen of this
country.

So he locks himself in the cab and I’m ranting and raving, I’m ranting
and raving and holding up my wallet and my license and registration, you
know, wearing a 62 truck “Rescue Me” t-shirt, you know. Could I have
more of an advertisement, like, I wonder who that is?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. LEARY: So - and it went on for like 15-20 minutes. It’s stupid, it’s
stupid, it’s so stupid. And by the way, thank God my kids weren’t with
me so they could see how - what an example their dad is, yelling and
screaming at a guy who can’t even understand English, you know.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. LEARY: But I was in the right, so there’s the male ego part. I was
right because there were green lights and he was – it’s stupid.

GROSS: Well, Denis…

Mr. LEARY: Stupid.

GROSS: …Denis Leary I wish you good luck in being mature, and…

Mr. LEARY: All right.

GROSS: …great to talk with you. Thanks a lot.

Mr. LEARY: Thanks, bye.

DAVIES: Denis Leary and Terry Gross recorded in 2007. The fifth season
of Leary’s series “Rescue Me” premiered on FX this week. Coming up David
Edelstein on the new Seth Rogen film “Observe and Report.” This is FRESH
AIR.
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'Observing' The Antics Of Officer Rogen

DAVE DAVIES, host:

Seth Rogen is starring in yet another new movie. It’s called “Observe
and Report,” and it’s by North Carolina born writer-director Jody Hill,
who had a cult hit in 2006 with the comedy “The Foot Fist Way.” He then
went on to co-create the HBO series “Eastbound & Down,” with its star
Danny McBride. In Hill’s second feature, Rogen plays a mall security
guard who takes his job a little too seriously. The film co-stars Anna
Faris and Ray Liotta. Film critic David Edelstein has this review.

DAVID EDELSTEIN: Gonzo gun humor might not be what we are in the mood
for after last week’s spate of shootings, but Jody Hill’s “Observe and
Report” isn’t just mindless fun with weaponry. About a half step below
the surface, it’s scary as hell. It’s the “Taxi Driver” of satirical
farces. In Martin Scorsese’s explosive drama, Robert De Niro’s Travis
Bickle was a sponge for all the bad vibes of New York City in the
1970’s. He obsessed over a blonde who was out of his league and then he
went nuts and assumed the role of vigilante avenger.

In “Observe and Report,” we have Seth Rogen’s head of mall security
Ronnie Barnhardt. He soaks up all suburbia’s bad vibes, obsesses over a
blonde who’s out of his league and then goes nuts and assumes the role
of vigilante avenger. We laugh at this gun-toting savior in his own
mind, but he’s too out of control for comfort. The movie opens with an
overweight man rushing up to women in the mall parking lot, spreading
his rain coat and gleefully showing off his family jewels.

A short time later Rogen’s Ronnie, now on the hunt for the flasher, says
to himself, part of me thinks this disgusting pervert is the best thing
that ever happened to me. Of course, the creep is virtually Ronnie’s
doppelganger. He’s not only given Ronnie’s life a focus. He’s given him
license to show off his own family jewels, metaphorically. The night
after the flasher has accosted Brandi, the lissome blonde cosmetics
clerk played by Anna Faris, Ronnie takes advantage of the opening to
scoop her up in a security golf cart and press his case.

(Soundbite of movie, “Observe and Report”)

Mr. SETH ROGEN (Actor): (As Ronnie Barnhardt) Brandi, Brandi, Brandi,
Brandi. Hey Brandi, I’m going out a scenario for you: You, me, free
dinner, you fill in the rest with the answer yes.

Ms. ANN FARIS: (As Brandi) Oh my God.

Mr. ROGEN: (As Ronnie Barnhardt) What?

Ms. FARIS: (As Brandi) Where are you going?

Mr. ROGEN: (As Ronnie Barnhardt) What? Sorry the brakes. Someone cut the
brakes.

Ms. FARIS: (As Brandi) Oh my God.

Mr. ROGEN: (As Ronnie Barnhardt) I can’t stop. I’m just joking. I can
stop, but I’m not going to unless you agree to go to dinner with me.

Unidentified Man (Actor): (As character) Well, better say yes and tell
him what you want to eat for dinner.

Ms. FARIS: (As Brandi) Fine. (unintelligible).

Mr. EDELSTEIN: It can’t be overemphasized. Ronnie is in the top tier of
unattractive heroes. Whether he’s putting unwanted moves on Brandi,
harassing a Muslim lotion vendor, tasering people who park in loading
docks or interfering with the detective, played by Ray Liotta, who’s
investigating both the flasher and the series of mall robberies. In
“Observe and Report,” director Hill piles on unpleasantries as if
testing our need to identify with the man with a gun, or taser. Hill
seems genuinely fascinated by mini-despots.

His first comedy, “The Foot Fist Way,” focused on a bullying marshal
arts instructor played by Danny McBride. It was only after this peewee
authoritarian was thoroughly humiliated by bigger authoritarians that we
began to sympathize with him. This macho blowhard was in some ways a
casualty of a macho blowhard culture. “Observe and Report’s” Ronnie is a
casualty too. He’s never known his father and his loving mother is
prodigiously drunk. He’s on strong psychoactive medication.

He lives in a world that prizes guns and the people who use them. He
works in a mall and eats fast food everyday at the food court. It’s
amazing he’s as functional as he is. Hill hits what seems like a bad
taste peek early on. A scene in which Ronnie takes advantage of an
ostensibly unconscious alcohol and drug addled vomit flecked Brandi and
just keeps climbing. When Ronnie and the number two security guard,
played by Michael Pena, embark on an orgy of drug taking and
authoritarian violence against unarmed civilians, the air in the theater
feels dangerously thin. This is comedy? It is with this cast, all of
them near geniuses.

Anna Faris draws out her words as if hysterically entranced by her own
blondeness. Her hyperventilations are exquisite. Liotta uses that eerie
tension between his teenage delinquent complexion and girlish eyes to
make you laugh before he opens his mouth. And Rogen, even if he is in
every other movie these days, still has surprises in him. The only
reason there’s no body count here is because “Observe and Report” is,
when all is said and done, a comedy. But what a comedy. Behind that
bland, neutral title is a mighty volcano of psychosexual mayhem. A
carnival funhouse mirror of our culture’s love affair with violence.

DAVIES: David Edelstein is film critic for New York Magazine. You can
download podcasts of our show at freshair.npr.org. For Terry Gross, I’m
Dave Davies.
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Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.