Congresswoman and Lawyer Eleanor Holmes Norton
In her 40 years of public service she worked for civil rights, helped write the guidelines that are now established in the Sexual Harrassment Act, worked for reform in South Africa and has argued before the Supreme Court. She has been the Commissioner on Human Rights in New York, the first woman appointed to head the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and a law professor. Holmes Norton is the subject of the new biography Fire in My Soul, written by a long-time friend, Joan Steinau Lester.
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DATE January 13, 2003 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A⨠TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A⨠NETWORK NPR⨠PROGRAM Fresh Airâ¨â¨Interview: Eleanor Holmes Norton discusses her congressionalâ¨career, her chairmanship at the Equal Employment Opportunityâ¨Commission and civil rightsâ¨TERRY GROSS, host:â¨â¨This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.â¨â¨My guest, Eleanor Holmes Norton, is the subject of the new biography "Fire inâ¨My Soul," about her life in the civil rights movement and Congress. Theâ¨author, Joan Steinau Lester, says she wanted to find out how Norton escapedâ¨the limitations typically imposed on women to become a national figure.â¨Norton is the congressional representative from Washington, DC, the placeâ¨where her great-grandfather settled after he escaped from slavery in Virginia.â¨She was brought up in the middle class while Washington was still segregated.â¨When she attended Antioch College, she headed its chapter of the NAACP. Inâ¨1970, after working as a civil rights lawyer for the ACLU, she became New Yorkâ¨City's first woman to serve as the commissioner of human rights. Underâ¨President Carter she was the first woman to chair the Equal Employmentâ¨Opportunity Commission, where she was instrumental in writing the sexualâ¨harassment guidelines. She's served in Congress since 1990.â¨â¨We talked first about growing up in segregated Washington, DC.â¨â¨In the biography of you, you say middle-class parents in Washington, DC, whenâ¨you were growing up, went to great pains to indoctrinated their black childrenâ¨to mitigate the effects of segregation. Can you talk about the raceâ¨consciousness you were brought up with as a child?â¨â¨Delegate ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (Washington, DC): Yes, I was brought up toâ¨believe that the white people in the District, many of them had really comeâ¨from Maryland and Virginia, some of them had come rural places, were not veryâ¨sophisticated people, and that people who regarded us as inferior, we who hadâ¨Howard University, where many of our parents had gone to school, we who hadâ¨educated people in our community, we who had Dunbar High School, the collegeâ¨preparatory high school that sent so many people away to college. It is weâ¨who should understand that these folks, many of them less educated than we,â¨were to be pitied. And certainly their notion that we were inferior was toâ¨make up for the fact that they lacked much of what we had struggled to get.â¨And I do put an emphasis on struggled.â¨â¨GROSS: You graduated from Dunbar High School at the top of your class, andâ¨this was a special college preparatory school. You were in the lastâ¨segregated class to graduate. When you went to Antioch, as a freshman atâ¨Antioch, you were exposed, for the first time, to the idea of the Holocaust;â¨you hadn't heard about that before. And you say in the biography of you thatâ¨it drove home to you how sequestered your segregated world and your educationâ¨had been. And I'm wondering if there were other examples like that, where asâ¨excellent as your education was, there was certain things you realized youâ¨didn't know about that, that you had been isolated from when you enteredâ¨college.â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: Well, at Antioch, where my peers were young people who hadâ¨gone to Bronx High School of Science and schools like music and art in Newâ¨York, people who'd come from the very best public schools in the Unitedâ¨States, in a real sense put my own education in some context. I knew it wasâ¨good; it was good for a segregated education. It wasn't as good academicallyâ¨as it should have been, and it certainly hadn't exposed me to the world.â¨â¨The clearest indication of that is that no educated person, certainly from aâ¨top-rated high school, should have been able to graduate from high schoolâ¨without knowing about the Holocaust. Understand, by this time, the Holocaustâ¨isn't even that old--we're talking 1955--and yet that had happened to me. Andâ¨while Dunbar had provided me with a good enough background so that even theâ¨gaps in knowledge didn't hold me back particularly because the grounding hadâ¨been so good, but the notion that something as consequential as the Holocaustâ¨had not ever been mentioned was astounding to me, because the notion of sixâ¨million people being murdered for their ethnicity struck me right in the gut.â¨I understood it immediately, because I was a black girl. And I didn't see howâ¨any black school, or any school in the United States, could have failed toâ¨have spent some time, if doing nothing else, then making the analogy.â¨â¨Dunbar is where people were recruited for the best schools in the Unitedâ¨States. It's one of the few black schools that you could come to and recruitâ¨people to go the Ivy League, to the good small schools. And many of ourâ¨teachers had PhDs, and yet I did not know that. And it said to me how muchâ¨else I must not know.â¨â¨GROSS: My guest is Eleanor Holmes Norton, and there's a new biography of herâ¨called "Fire in My Soul."â¨â¨When you started to become associated with the civil rights movement, and toâ¨live a life that was more politically and socially radical, how did yourâ¨parents feel about this? Were they afraid that if you moved away from theâ¨middle class that you could eventually fall off the edge economically and notâ¨be able to get back?â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: Well, I must say, I had wonderfully tolerant parents, aâ¨mother and a father. I know when I went to Mississippi, particularly myâ¨mother was concerned, because this was 1963, before the delta had, as we said,â¨`been opened up' to humanity. But I was never discouraged by my parents forâ¨my pursuit of these ideas. It may be because my father was a hard-core Newâ¨Dealer. And remember, he was in the generation that came to the Democraticâ¨Party, because the prior generation, generations, had been Republicans. So heâ¨had seen great change in his political life. My mother, also a New Dealer,â¨was at time so disgusted with the racism of the Democratic Party she votedâ¨Socialist, or even Republican. These were very intelligent people whoâ¨themselves had worked their way through college and graduate school. So theyâ¨never believed that I would somehow go off and be a Bohemian...â¨â¨GROSS: Right.â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: ...and find myself an attic to crawl into.â¨â¨GROSS: Now Joan Steinau Lester, who wrote the biography of you, "Fire in Myâ¨Soul," she says at Antioch your justice concerns `implied alliance with ratherâ¨than differentiation from the ordinary black person from whom middle classâ¨blacks often tried to escape.' Do you agree with that perception? And if youâ¨do, can you elaborate on it?â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: Well, I think she gets that from the fact that I wasâ¨terribly concerned with economic justice. I looked into socialism. I didn'tâ¨understand why black people were so--remember, the majority of black peopleâ¨were poor. I made the connection between poor whites and poor blacks. And soâ¨I immediately felt an affinity with people who were left out. Who is it--itâ¨was Eugene Debs who said, `As long as there's a working class, I'm in it,' orâ¨something--that stirred me. And I early became oriented toward the laborâ¨movement, which I was as the great movement for bringing blacks and whitesâ¨together who were in the same kind of economic difficulty and in the Congress.â¨And goodness, for most of my life I considered myself a Democrat to be sure,â¨but a labor Democrat. I saw the labor movement turn from one which alsoâ¨excluded blacks, particularly in the craft unions, to unions like the CIO andâ¨the UAW, which organized blacks.â¨â¨So, yes, I early linked my own racial politics with the politics of the poorâ¨and the working class. It just seemed to me to flow together, just as I thinkâ¨my own sense of race makes me see direct analogies to women, to Hispanics, toâ¨gays and anybody else who has faced the kind of discrimination I have faced.â¨â¨GROSS: When you were a student, you not only organized in the North, but youâ¨spent some time in the Mississippi delta organizing. What struck you mostâ¨about how different the civil rights movement looked in Mississippi comparedâ¨to how it looked up North?â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: Well, first you've got to recognize, when I went toâ¨Mississippi--I went to Mississippi in 1963. By that time SNCC, CORE, theâ¨Urban League, the civil rights movement was all over the South, but not inâ¨Mississippi. Mississippi was the place where terrorism--and I use the wordâ¨carefully--took place. For example, when sit-ins occurred at Jackson, theâ¨largest city, people didn't just spit on them, they beat them terribly. Theâ¨sit-ins occurred much later in Jackson. Now I had met Bob Moses--this wasâ¨this extraordinarily heroic Harvard mathematician who had gone south, luredâ¨into the delta precisely by the fact that the delta was where you were notâ¨supposed to go, and where even the activist civil rights movement hadn't gone.â¨â¨And when Bob Moses came to the North to raise money, I met him and it is heâ¨who recruited me to come to the delta in the summer of 1963. He wanted me toâ¨do a prototype of freedom schools, with the notion, perhaps, of havingâ¨students come in 1964--and we will remember Schwerner, Goodman and Chaney, theâ¨three who were killed in 1964--to do freedom schools all across the South. Weâ¨wanted to teach people how to vote so that when they went in they would knowâ¨what to say to the man who told them they couldn't vote, how to fill out theâ¨forms. And here was I, a Yale Law School student, who could come and do theâ¨prototype. And that is what I did, and I have to tell you, different--it wasâ¨not only different from anything I had ever seen, it was different fromâ¨anything the civil rights movement was doing, because of the hostility of theâ¨place, because I came straight out of--my first day I saw that hostility withâ¨people put in jail and because, in a sense, we had to break open the meanestâ¨part of the South, and it was so mean that even a year later, when hundreds ofâ¨civil rights workers came, within the first week, three were killed, wereâ¨murdered, and we still commemorate their lives to this very day.â¨â¨GROSS: My guest is Eleanor Holmes Norton. There's a new biography of herâ¨called "Fire in My Soul." We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨GROSS: Eleanor Holmes Norton is my guest, and she was the commissioner ofâ¨human rights in New York City, she chaired the Equal Employment Opportunityâ¨Commission under President Carter. She's now the congressional delegate fromâ¨the District of Columbia. There's a new biography of her called "Fire in Myâ¨Soul."â¨â¨In the biography of you, you say that after reading Simone de Beauvoir's "Theâ¨Second Sex" you became a feminist, and you say if you were associated withâ¨civil rights, with labor rights, the analogies are intellectually compelling,â¨that transition to feminism is easy. You say what you didn't understand wasâ¨why the transition didn't happen to everybody who was in the civil rightsâ¨movement. Why did you feel so strongly that African-American women needed aâ¨women's movement?â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: Well, I didn't feel African-American women needed a women'sâ¨movement. I believed that women of the world needed a women's movement.â¨â¨GROSS: I know. I guess I put it that way because a lot of African-Americanâ¨women, as you say in the biography, felt that the women's movement was soâ¨white in its orientation and its population that they didn't identify with it.â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: That's right. And they didn't identify with it becauseâ¨racial discrimination was so compelling. Race and color had been the birthâ¨defect, as someone has called it, of our country; that it was hard to getâ¨around it to anything else, especially since racial discrimination was stillâ¨here when the women's movement rose. That is to say, some of the worst of itâ¨was still around. But I thought one way to get people to understand theirâ¨alliance, even with white women, with women across the globe, was to make sureâ¨they understood that half of black people were women and that black women wereâ¨not treated equal with black men, that women were valuable allies for blackâ¨men and black women in breaking through discrimination, albeit very differentâ¨often, that blacks faced and black men faced and women faced, but neverthelessâ¨of the same genre of irrationality.â¨â¨And I thought the analogies ought to be clear: Once you have experiencedâ¨discrimination, it ought to be clear that somebody else--might be a Hispanic,â¨might be a woman who, in fact, was not poor, but who's been excluded justâ¨because of who she is, that that analogy is self-defining, it seemed to me.â¨â¨GROSS: You were sworn in as chair of the Equal Employment Opportunityâ¨Commission in June of 1977. As the chairman of the EEOC, you wrote the sexualâ¨harassment guidelines. Why did you feel the need to get sexual harassment inâ¨writing?â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: I called the staff in one day. We had seen these individualâ¨cases come before the commission. Oh, were they horrific. And what theseâ¨cases required was a woman to come forward and state sometimes abominableâ¨things about what had happened to her. We're not talking rape, but we'reâ¨talking things that are very ugly. And we saw that employers were aghast.â¨Often they did not know. Of course, the law says you know or should haveâ¨known when you employ somebody, so the employer was embarrassed, the woman wasâ¨mortified. I said, `Just a moment. What are we here for?' The purpose ofâ¨guidelines, which are akin to regulations, is to put all parties on notice ofâ¨what the offensive conduct is so that they can take action against it. Asâ¨long as we're sitting here waiting on a case-by-case basis to define even whatâ¨this new form of discrimination but old workplace practice is, the wholeâ¨burden is going to be on women. Employers are going to feel victimizedâ¨because they didn't know and they didn't know quite what to do about it. Andâ¨we thought--I thought at least, writing guidelines, even though that would beâ¨controversial, would at least put employers on notice and they'd begin toâ¨chase it out of the workplace themselves.â¨â¨Of course, employers always are against regulations and guidelines, but one ofâ¨the most gratifying things to see was what happened after the guidelines,â¨because the guidelines asked employers to use the official guidelines of theâ¨federal government, our own guidelines, to write their own internal rules.â¨Well, employers were quick to do so, and then to send their rules to us soâ¨that we could see what they had done. They also, by the way, were makingâ¨something of a defense for themselves, at least partially so, if an employeeâ¨engaged in this kind of conduct, although the employer would still beâ¨responsible, having taken some action might mitigate some of these damages.â¨So we regarded this as a win-win.â¨â¨GROSS: Well...â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: And the guidelines withstood Supreme Court review and haveâ¨been very useful to women and to employers since.â¨â¨GROSS: Well, it's kind of paradoxical that, after writing these sexualâ¨harassment guidelines, you went on to see one of your successors at the EEOC,â¨Clarence Thomas, be accused of sexual harassment by Anita Hill after he wasâ¨nominated to serve as Supreme Court justice. You were one of theâ¨congresspeople to say to the Senate, `You have to have a hearing on this. Youâ¨have to hear her. You have to hear Anita Hill and hear her charges.' Whatâ¨are your beliefs now about what happened?â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: Well, I was one of the seven or eight women who walked overâ¨to the Senate when it looked like the Senate was not even going to bring thisâ¨matter up. I thought it would be a taint on the court if, in fact, Thomasâ¨went on and this hung over his head. I thought he needed it to come on.â¨There's no question in my mind if you looked at the demeanor of Anita Hill,â¨think about what it takes to make this accusation, understood her backgroundâ¨of honesty and integrity, that what she said was true. The notion that sheâ¨would sit down and make up some of those was an appalling accusation,â¨particularly since it was brought out of her. She never--it was when theâ¨investigators came to her that this was brought out of her. She did not comeâ¨forward initially on her own with this accusation, but she was brave enough,â¨once they came forward and once it had to be made known to the Senate to comeâ¨forward and state what happened.â¨â¨So there's no question in my mind that it happened. And I think that, as timeâ¨has gone on, anyone who studies that record will understand that this is not aâ¨woman who came forward and fabricated such an atrocious notion.â¨â¨GROSS: You're a lawyer. Has your view of the Clarence Thomas sexualâ¨harassment charges made you more skeptical of the Supreme Court, the currentâ¨Supreme Court?â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: It's not the sexual harassment charges that made me moreâ¨skeptical. We knew exactly where Clarence Thomas stood on issues ofâ¨importance to black people, to women, to the great progressive laws of theâ¨20th century. I'm very skeptical of a Supreme Court that has done all itâ¨could to throw over much of the progress of the last 75 years. But that's notâ¨much related to the sexual harassment matter. I mean, he's on the court now.â¨He's got to live with that. I'm far more concerned about the stance he hasâ¨taken. I think it is a perversion of what it means to have anâ¨African-American on the court, to have had Clarence Thomas to follow Thurgoodâ¨Marshall.â¨â¨GROSS: Eleanor Holmes Norton will be back in the second half of the show.â¨There's a new biography of her called "Fire in My Soul," written by Joanâ¨Steinau Lester.â¨â¨I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.â¨â¨(Announcements)â¨â¨GROSS: Coming up, getting elected to Congress and forming an unlikelyâ¨political friendship with Newt Gingrich. We continue our conversation withâ¨Eleanor Holmes Norton. And Ken Tucker reviews "Redemption's Son," the thirdâ¨CD by singer-songwriter Joseph Arthur.â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Eleanor Holmes Norton.â¨â¨There's a new biography of her called "Fire in My Soul," about her life in theâ¨civil rights movement and politics. Norton is the former New York Cityâ¨Commissioner of Human Rights. Under President Carter, she became the firstâ¨woman to serve as the chair of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.â¨Since 1990, she's represented Washington, DC, in Congress.â¨â¨Now Washington, DC, doesn't have a vote in Congress. You are the soleâ¨representative in Congress. There are no senators, there's oneâ¨congressperson, and that's you. Could you give us a very brief historicalâ¨explanation about why the nation's capital doesn't have a vote in Congress?â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: Framers never meant it that way. The district--those whoâ¨lived in the district, for 10 years, did have the vote, because the districtâ¨was formed from Maryland and Virginia, and took 10 years for it to become theâ¨District of Columbia. The framers, I'm sure, expected Congress to thereforeâ¨give the vote once the city became the nation's capital. Congress never didâ¨that. In the beginning there were many who believed that race had a lot to doâ¨with it. There was not a majority black population until almost 1960. Butâ¨there were always large numbers of blacks here. There's a sense that peopleâ¨didn't believe that this place, which had so many blacks, should have thatâ¨kind of, perhaps, shared power. And then there was a proprietary sense.â¨`This is our capital. And we're going to disenfranchise the people who liveâ¨in our capital.' Here you have a city of 600,000 people. And they're secondâ¨per capita in federal income taxes. And no senators.â¨â¨GROSS: Can you explain to us what--where you have a vote and where you don'tâ¨have a vote and how, if at all, that's--the status of that has changed duringâ¨your years in Congress?â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: I don't have the final vote on the House floor, which is theâ¨vote that's emblematic of American citizenship. That's atrociousness byâ¨people who are second per capita in federal income taxes. I do have the voteâ¨where many people think it counts most, in committees, because that's whereâ¨you bring home things to your constituents. And I actually won the right toâ¨vote on the House floor in the Committee of the Whole, as it is called.â¨â¨I'm a constitutional lawyer. Shortly after I got to Congress I figured outâ¨that if I could vote in committee that I should--I could vote in the Committeeâ¨of the Whole--that's what you see on C-SPAN--and that's where most of ourâ¨business is transacted. Then there's a final vote there, but most of ourâ¨business is transacted, and I got the right to vote in the Committee of theâ¨Whole. The Democrats were in power then. The Republicans sued. The courtsâ¨upheld the right to vote in the Committee of the Whole, but the Republicans,â¨when they took control of the Congress, then took back that right to vote.â¨And this is even during the fact...â¨â¨GROSS: This was in 1995.â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: That was in 1995.â¨â¨GROSS: Uh-huh. OK. So what do you want now? You're going after the fullâ¨vote.â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: Now I'm going after the full vote in the House and the twoâ¨senators that anybody who pays federal income tax in this country should beâ¨entitled to.â¨â¨GROSS: You are now in a Republican-controlled Congress and at the same timeâ¨as a Republican president, so the Republican Party has a lot of legislationâ¨it's going to try to push through during this Republican era. What do youâ¨think will be the Democratic strategy to try to prevent that from happening?â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: With Republicans in control of both houses, the Democratsâ¨are going to have to do two things. One, appeal to the public to bringâ¨pressure on the Republicans so that we can force compromises. And, two,â¨depend largely on the Senate, where a senator even in the minority can keepâ¨things from happening. I should indicate that in many respects I'm unlikeâ¨most members of the House, because my city's budget, after it passes, it hasâ¨to come to the House because the Congress can still intervene in our businessâ¨in a most undemocratic way and because there are no senators. I have had toâ¨learn to work with Republicans who are my ideological opposites, and that hasâ¨been perhaps some of the fun of the job.â¨â¨A close ally, and people will not believe this, was Newt Gingrich. Newtâ¨Gingrich, like me, was a professor. I had been a tenured professor of law atâ¨Georgetown. He was a PhD. He had a great appreciation for what the nation'sâ¨capital was and should be as a historical matter. And time and again, he wasâ¨very helpful to me. I work closely, I have an understanding with our speaker.â¨I've even worked with Trent Lott on tax matters for the District of Columbiaâ¨very cooperatively. Never saw any of the racism that so appalled people, orâ¨if it wasn't racism, certainly the racial insensitivity that came out.â¨â¨And a real sense--I'm put in the position where despite being a deeplyâ¨ideological Democrat when it comes to national issues, when it comes to issuesâ¨affecting my city, I've got to make Republicans understand their obligation toâ¨work with my city. I work with this president. I worked with George Bush,â¨his father. And I've been able to do this because no one expects me to leaveâ¨my national principles somehow in order to do something for the nation'sâ¨capital.â¨â¨And I've been able to get lots of legislation that's important for us. I'llâ¨just name one. Through a Republican Congress, I got a bill that allows anyâ¨youngster in the District of Columbia to go to any public college anywhere inâ¨the United States at low in-state tuition with the federal government payingâ¨the difference. And I argued that we had only an open admission university--aâ¨wonderful one, but it certainly doesn't fit a district of 600,000 people--andâ¨that if we valued education, district residents had to have opportunities forâ¨higher education similar to people who live in states, and we won that. Inâ¨order to do that, I had to work with Republicans in the Senate, Republicans inâ¨the House from the committee level on up. So in a real sense, my career Iâ¨think shows that you can have a schizophrenic career in the House ofâ¨Representatives.â¨â¨GROSS: The biography of you quotes how you introduced Newt Gingrich to theâ¨people gathered at a town meeting in Washington, DC. And this was when he wasâ¨speaker of the House. I'll read this. You said--in introducing him, youâ¨said, "I want you to know that the speaker has helped me in many ways. Whenâ¨it looked like the district was about to lose $200 million for these raggedyâ¨roads out here, I went to the speaker and was able to save that money. Butâ¨the speaker knows I oppose his entire national agenda from the Contract onâ¨America to the death penalty. And he knows that I seek to replace him asâ¨speaker of the House of Representatives. I'm very pleased to introduce you toâ¨my good friend, the Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich." That'sâ¨schizophrenic.â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: Well, Newt loved it. He fell out laughing. So did I.â¨Because that was our understanding all along. You may remember that it wasâ¨when Newt was speaker that the federal government kept closing down? Well,â¨the District of Columbia, which had its budget over here even though it hadâ¨already been passed because it has to be somehow ratified by the federalâ¨government, therefore, closed down with it. Can you imagine? This is aâ¨living, breathing city, and yet we closed down with the federal government.â¨The federal government got closed down at least five or six times thereafter.â¨Each time, I went to the speaker and said, `Newt, you're not going to closeâ¨down this city, are you?' And each time he kept it open. So I'm not one ofâ¨his detractors. Of course, I disagree--I said so. I said so openly. Butâ¨that didn't keep us from working closely together to benefit the nation'sâ¨capital. It was his capital, too. It's not just my capital.â¨â¨GROSS: Now you say that you didn't see a racist side of Trent Lott. Althoughâ¨Trent Lott was forced out of his position as majority leader, he's going toâ¨get a prestigious chairmanship in the Senate. What's your reaction to that?â¨Do you think...â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: Well, we--look, I think the difficulty the Black Caucus hadâ¨with Trent Lott was largely that he was the leader in the Senate. We don'tâ¨have anything to do with how they apportion their chairmanships. I thinkâ¨probably most people thought he would get a chairmanship. We think thatâ¨whether or not he remained in the Senate wasn't our business, either. That'sâ¨the business of the people of Mississippi. Only they can decide thatâ¨question.â¨â¨GROSS: When he said what he did at Strom Thurmond's birthday party, did youâ¨see those comments as reflecting a racism that he still had? Did you seeâ¨those comments as reflecting racism that exists in other parts of theâ¨Republican Party?â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: Well, I'm very reluctant to attribute racism, which is seenâ¨as a kind of personal attribute, to anybody. Here I bring from the civilâ¨rights movement the sense that we didn't particularly care where people stoodâ¨on us. He just cared how they treated us. Now I have to be clear, Trent Lottâ¨had been very helpful to the District of Columbia. In no way had I seen anyâ¨racism or even the kind of racial insensitivity as some would call thatâ¨remark. And yet it is clear the Trent Lott had once represented a district inâ¨the Congress--remember he came from the House--where you could speak looselyâ¨about race. And that stuff, that old-school stuff was still with him. Heâ¨hadn't shaken it. Look, the Senate is full of reconstructed men, people whoâ¨lived lives with racism, and who have changed. I think people who haveâ¨changed need to be rewarded, or else they don't have any reason to change,â¨because no matter what they do, you're not going to be with them.â¨â¨I remember when George Wallace ran again. I mean, he was out and then he cameâ¨back and ran for, I guess, governor. And black people actually voted withâ¨him. At that time, I was a young woman. I couldn't believe it. I said, `Howâ¨can they vote for George Wallace?' But African-Americans had seen a realâ¨change in George Wallace and rewarded him for changing. I'm talking about theâ¨African-Americans in Alabama.â¨â¨GROSS: Mm-hmm.â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: So in a real sense, you know, the notion that once you hadâ¨those views, you are persona non grata with us is very self-defeating. Ourâ¨point should be to bring them to us regardless of how they feel, regardless ofâ¨their views. We want to make sure they vote with us and that all the outwardâ¨manifestations of racism are gone from everything they do.â¨â¨GROSS: My guest is Eleanor Holmes Norton. There's a new biography of herâ¨called "Fire in My Soul." We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨GROSS: Eleanor Holmes Norton is my guest, and she's the congressionalâ¨representative from Washington, DC; former head of the Equal Employmentâ¨Opportunity Commission; former ACLU lawyer. There's a new biography of herâ¨called "Fire in My Soul."â¨â¨The Republican Party has been trying to expand the number of African-Americansâ¨in the party and to expand the number of very visible African-Americans in theâ¨party. Opinions of those efforts?â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: Oh, they are pathetic. For example, the Republicans have aâ¨party problem. They like to say that somehow Democrats take blacks forâ¨granted. Be real. Did we take them for granted when the Democrats actuallyâ¨lost the entire South, the entire white South because it embraced racialâ¨harmony and racial equality? I mean, it is Democrats who stand up constantlyâ¨for the agenda of black America.â¨â¨The Republicans, interestingly these days, come forward with their own blackâ¨agenda. They say, `Well, we have things that blacks are for,' and they comeâ¨up with something like faith-based, you know, whose primary beneficiaries willâ¨be the religious right. And I don't know of a single African-American leaderâ¨who has put faith-based at the top of his list or even hardly on his list.â¨Indeed the president's faith-based initiative the entire Black Caucus opposesâ¨because it allows religious organizations to discriminate in who they hire,â¨hiring people only of their own religion.â¨â¨Or they put vouchers because many African-Americans in their concern with poorâ¨public schools, if asked, will say, `Yeah, I'm for vouchers. Give me someâ¨money to go someplace, I'll go.' Once their own representatives tell themâ¨what that voucher would mean and where the money would come from, you will notâ¨find our black constituents voting us out because the Black Caucus, 100â¨percent, opposes vouchers.â¨â¨So vouchers and faith-based is on their agenda. Look, fellas, is all I canâ¨say to Republicans, none of that is on the African-American agenda. You goâ¨into to the ghettos, that is not on their agenda. They want uninsured to haveâ¨health care; they want the Republicans to put affordable housing back on theâ¨agenda; they want the president's education bill fully funded; they wantâ¨Republicans to stop shooting affirmative action in the back. I don't see anyâ¨of that on their agenda. Until it's on their agenda, at least in some form,â¨they are not going to get African-American votes, pure and simple.â¨â¨GROSS: You helped write the affirmative action guidelines. What do you thinkâ¨would be appropriate affirmative action for today?â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: Unfortunately, many Americans, including manyâ¨African-Americans, don't understand that affirmative action is a temporaryâ¨remedy. You don't have nearly as much need for some kinds of affirmativeâ¨action in some places, for example, some workplaces, as you would have hadâ¨when I chaired the Equal Opportunity Commission, beginning in the late '70s.â¨What you certainly need today is the kind of affirmative action now beingâ¨fought over in the Supreme Court and the University of Michigan cases. Lastâ¨thing you want to do is to cut the legs out from African-Americans who areâ¨striving to get the best education they can.â¨â¨This is an example of where African-Americans will be watching the Republicanâ¨president. Will he go in and ask that this program, which is so critical in aâ¨state university, be taken down? If he does, I mean, I think that's just theâ¨ball game.â¨â¨GROSS: I want to tell you what I thought was the funniest part of theâ¨biography of you. One of the first times--well, one of the early times youâ¨were on TV in your position as commissioner of human rights in New York, youâ¨used the word `Polack' to describe Polish people.â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: Well, I'm glad you think that was funny. I was humiliated.â¨â¨GROSS: Well, you didn't realize apparently that this was a slang derogatoryâ¨expression for Polish people. What impact did that have on you to useâ¨something that's a derogatory expression and not even know that it was that?â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: Isn't--well, that's akin to not knowing that six millionâ¨Jews had been murdered. I grew up in a very black environment. No exposureâ¨to white people. Certainly no exposure to ethnic white people. The onlyâ¨white people that were here, you know, were white people from Maryland,â¨Virginia or native Washingtonians, sometimes hillbillies. But people withâ¨Polish names or even Irish names and Italian names, they didn't live for theâ¨most part in DC. And I don't remember ever having to refer to Poles. Butâ¨here am I, sophisticated Yale graduate, Eleanor Holmes Norton had been an ACLUâ¨lawyer, I had my own television program once I became human rightsâ¨commissioner, and I used the word `Polack' as you use, you know, blacks, notâ¨even understanding what I'm saying.â¨â¨That is no excuse. I couldn't believe it when I came off the air and peopleâ¨said, `You know you used the word "Polack"?' I said, `Yeah? Let's see, wouldâ¨it be better to say "Pole"?' They had, of course--I recognized that the factâ¨that this was stupid and ignorant was no excuse. There's no excuse for beingâ¨stupid and ignorant. I should have been exposed, I should have somehow pickedâ¨it up.â¨â¨And so the way I dealt with it was--and perhaps Trent Lott should have doneâ¨this--to be immediately apologetic, to say, `This was an inexcusable thing toâ¨do.' I told them why I did it. I didn't want people to think I did itâ¨because I really believed that that was a term to be used and I kind of wipedâ¨it from my view and it kind of just came back. I told them I was stupid andâ¨ignorant. But stupidity and ignorance is no excuse, particularly when you'reâ¨human rights commissioner of New York.â¨â¨I have to tell you that Poles in New York were wonderful. After they heard meâ¨and, you know, the Daily News had my picture with my big Afro and had quotedâ¨what I said and then quoted my response, after they heard my response, I gotâ¨so many letters and so many calls really of forgiveness, of understanding fromâ¨Poles in New York. So I appreciated the way people received my stupidity.â¨â¨GROSS: One last question. Anyone who looks at the biography of you, "Fire inâ¨My Soul," will see photographs of you with a very, very large Afro. When youâ¨had your Afro, when you first started to grow it, what was the importance ofâ¨it to you?â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: I long for my Afro. Now I have to keep it short. I stillâ¨have an Afro. I was one of the first blacks I knew to get an Afro, and I haveâ¨to say it came after `black is beautiful' became a slogan. I had alwaysâ¨detested having my hair straightened. Boy, I hated that. Then the edges gotâ¨nappy, you'd have to touch up the edges. And when black is beautifulâ¨revealed--and I must tell you, it was a revelation--that this nappy hairâ¨wasn't ugly, it was the way it was supposed to be, there were ways to wear it;â¨that we're attractive by letting it all hang out and grow and grow. You know,â¨there are many ways in which I have felt liberated. One was, of course, whenâ¨feminism came and I could be truly liberated to be the woman that I think Iâ¨was always becoming, but nothing is more liberating than letting your hair beâ¨naturally what your hair is, so that you don't spend all your time thinkingâ¨about your hair. And you regard your hair as perfectly acceptable even thoughâ¨it's natural, indeed, it's beautiful even though it's nappy.â¨â¨GROSS: Eleanor Holmes Norton, thank you so much for talking with us.â¨â¨Delegate NORTON: It was my pleasure.â¨â¨GROSS: Eleanor Holmes Norton is the congressional representative fromâ¨Washington, DC. The new biography of her is called "Fire in My Soul."â¨â¨Coming up, Ken Tucker reviews the new CD by Joseph Arthur. This is FRESH AIR.â¨â¨* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *â¨â¨Review: Joseph Arthur's recent album "Redemption's Son"â¨TERRY GROSS, host:â¨â¨Joseph Arthur is an Ohio-born New York-based singer-songwriter who recentlyâ¨released his third album called "Redemption's Son." Rock critic Ken Tuckerâ¨says Arthur, playing most of the instruments himself and overdubbing his ownâ¨voices in the choruses, is making a different kind of lush, personal rockâ¨music.â¨â¨(Soundbite of "Evidence")â¨â¨Mr. JOSEPH ARTHUR: (Singing) I need a dream. I need a bigger dream. Tell meâ¨if you know what I mean. I want to live...â¨â¨KEN TUCKER reporting:â¨â¨In that beautiful piece of music called "Evidence," Joseph Arthur sings `Iâ¨need a dream. I need a bigger dream. Tell me if you know what I mean.' It'sâ¨this searching, beseeching quality of Arthur's music that I find soâ¨intriguing. When Arthur speaks of a bigger dream, he seems to mean a desireâ¨for new experiences, new goals, new reasons to fall in love as well as aâ¨yearning for a spiritual quest that's larger than his everyday experience.â¨â¨You don't entitle an album "Redemption's Son" without making a listener cockâ¨his or her ear for its religious implications. And references to Christ do,â¨in fact, abound throughout this collection.â¨â¨(Soundbite of "Redemption's Son")â¨â¨Mr. ARTHUR: (Singing) I don't know where we've been. Could you tell me whereâ¨we are again? And Jesus is my only friend. No one else knows who I am. Iâ¨know I'll never make it on the cross. Spend my days looking for a woman thatâ¨I lost. He was too proud to have a boss. Sold himself out but he couldn'tâ¨afford the cost. No one knows how he felt. Hung himself in the county jail.â¨There were those who said he would burn in hell. I don't think they knew himâ¨very well.â¨â¨TUCKER: On that title song, Arthur enlists Jesus in his own journey to,â¨quote, "spend my days looking for a woman that I lost." Who's that? A lover,â¨a mother, or sister? Arthur keeps things open-ended, allusive and elusive.â¨His album, which stretches out to a roomy 75 minutes plus, is one long pun onâ¨religion and romance. Sometimes he hallucinates that he is Christ andâ¨creepily sings to a woman that he's pursued her, quote, "since your red lipsâ¨turned blue," which I assume means she's dead. Much of the music onâ¨"Redemption's Son" is standard issue guitar and harmonica, singer-songwriter,â¨with Bob Dylan and Neil Young the salient vocal models. But on a moreâ¨elaborately constructed composition like "Nation of Slaves," Arthur piles onâ¨overdubs of his voice, whipping them up into a thick, tense chorus that againâ¨comments punningly on religious and romantic obsession, chanting over andâ¨over, `I can't find my way without following you.'â¨â¨(Soundbite of "Nation of Slaves")â¨â¨Mr. ARTHUR: (Singing) Live in a time where we all gonna fall apart withâ¨chemicals rising up over the sun. A nuclear mind evolution of human heart isâ¨the creation we're gonna become. A nation of slaves. We all say that I can'tâ¨find my way without following you. And I can't find my way without followingâ¨you. And I can't find my way without following you. And I can't find my wayâ¨without following you. And I can't. Burned by...â¨â¨TUCKER: In another song called "Permission," Joseph Arthur says, `I don'tâ¨need your permission to pray for you.' And his assertion almost sounds like aâ¨threat. So does his song title "You Are Loved." The implication is, you getâ¨his fervent prayers whether you want them or not, and heaven knows what he'sâ¨praying for. Arthur is willing to make obsession come off as both deliriouslyâ¨devotional and dementedly insistent. What gives his music power is that heâ¨sings about all this in such a mild matter-of-fact tone. He's created a long,â¨gorgeous album that might very well send a cold chill down your back.â¨â¨GROSS: Ken Tucker is critic at large for Entertainment Weekly. He reviewedâ¨"Redemption's Son" by Joseph Arthur.â¨â¨(Credits)â¨â¨GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨Mr. ARTHUR: (Singing) One, two, three. And where we live is where we hideâ¨because we can't forgive what's inside. We have sweet love.â¨â¨Backup Singers: We have sweet love.â¨â¨Mr. ARTHUR: (Singing) We have sweet love.â¨â¨Backup Singers: We have sweet love.â¨â¨Mr. ARTHUR and Backup Singers: (Singing) In the night, voices of light,â¨voices of shadows and the runaways running from love and every sorrow leftâ¨behind.â¨â¨Mr. ARTHUR: (Singing) And when we wake up, it's already dark. And I touchâ¨your face...â¨â¨Mr. ARTHUR and Backup Singers: (Singing) ...to feel alive.â¨â¨Mr. ARTHUR: (Singing) We have sweet love.â¨â¨Backup Singers: We have sweet love.â¨â¨Mr. ARTHUR: (Singing) We have sweet love.â¨â¨Backup Singers: We have sweet love.â¨â¨Mr. ARTHUR and Backup Singers: (Singing) In the night, voices of light,â¨voices of the shadows and the runaways running from love and every sorrow leftâ¨behind. In the night, voices of light, voices of the shadows and the runawaysâ¨running from love and every sorrow left behind. In the night...