Bob Odenkirk Mixes Laughter And Law In 'Breaking Bad' And 'Better Call Saul'

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I’m FRESH AIR TV critic David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "BETTER CALL SAUL")

BOB ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy McGill) I know what you're thinking. Yeah, a lawsuit sounds good, Saul, but who can I sue? Who can you sue? Try police departments, libraries, construction companies, school officials, cleaning services, financial institutions, local and international, your neighbors, your family members, your church, synagogue or other...

BIANCULLI: That's an ad for Saul Goodman, the attorney who took whatever work he could get, from slip-and-fall cases and frivolous lawsuits to clients like meth cook and dealer Walter White, the central character on the wonderful AMC series "Breaking Bad." “Breaking Bad” is long gone now, but its legacy and some of its characters linger on in an AMC spinoff series called “Better Call Saul,” starring Bob Odenkirk. It’s partly a sequel but mostly a prequel and tells the story of Jimmy McGill, the struggling attorney who would, in time, adopt the persona and the slippery morals of Saul Goodman. It also gives us the backstory of Mike Ehrmantraut, the hitman and fixer on “Breaking Bad,” and shows how Mike and Jimmy McGill came to work together. “Breaking Bad” was created by Vince Gilligan. “Better Call Saul” was co-created by Gilligan and Peter Gould, a “Breaking Bad” writer-producer who came up with the character of fast-talking Saul. Last year, when “Better Call Saul” premiered, it ended up at the very top of my annual 10-best list. Season begins Monday on AMC. And the first two episodes I’ve seen are just as terrific as last year’s. Later on the show, we’ll listen back to Terry’s interview with Bob Odenkirk, the star of “Better Call Saul.” But first, we’ll hear her conversation from last year with Peter Gould, the co-creator of “Better Call Saul,” and Jonathan Banks, who plays the gruff and dangerous Mike Ehrmantraut. In last year’s premiere episode of “Better Call Saul,” set six years before the start of “Breaking Bad,” Saul Goodman isn’t using that name yet. He’s still going by his birth name, Jimmy McGill. He’s a public defender who’s so broke, his home and office are in the back room of a nail salon. He’s trying to get some wealthy, high-profile clients for his private practice. When he finds out that the county treasurer is suspected of having embezzled over a million and a half dollars, Jimmy, played by Bob Odenkirk, sets his sights on becoming the treasurer’s lawyer. Jimmy can’t invite clients to his shabby office, so he meets with the treasurer and the treasurer’s wife in a restaurant.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "BETTER CALL SAUL")

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy McGill) Look, all I know is what I read in the paper. And typically when money goes missing from the county treasury - and the number here is $1.6 million...

JULIE ANN EMERY: (As Betsy Kettleman) Well, that's an accounting...

JEREMY SHAMOS: (As Craig Kettleman) That's an accounting discrepancy.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy McGill) It's a discrepancy, absolutely, but typically when that happens, the police look at the treasurer. And since that person is (laughter) - I just think a little proactivity may be in order.

SHAMOS: (As Craig Kettleman) I just think I'd look guilty if I hired a lawyer.

EMERY: (As Betsy Kettleman) Yeah.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy McGill) Actually, it's getting arrested that makes people look guilty, even the innocent ones. And innocent people get arrested every day. And they find themselves in a little room with a detective who acts like he's their best friend. Talk to me, he says. Help me clear this thing up. You don't need a lawyer. Only guilty people need lawyers. And boom, hey, that's when it all goes south. That's when you want someone in your corner, someone who will fight tooth and nail. Lawyers - you know, we're like health insurance. You hope you never need it, but man, oh man, not having it - no (laughter).

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

Peter Gould, Jonathan Banks, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on "Better Call Saul." Peter Gould, let me start with you. Of all the characters to spin off, why did you want to spin off a series about Saul?

PETER GOULD: It may sound like a calculated process, but there was nothing but organic instinct behind it. Saul Goodman was introduced in season two of "Breaking Bad," and he - I was a little worried when he first appeared because he seemed maybe not in keeping with the rest of the tone of the show. But somehow, he seemed to work in the world of "Breaking Bad," and we loved him. Everybody in the writer's room enjoyed writing for him. and thinking about what would happen to Saul Goodman. And this character, he took us by the collar and said, do this show, more than us deciding that he was the guy.

GROSS: So you had to figure out how to get into this prequel. So it starts in the present where the character of Saul left off in "Breaking Bad," and he's managing the Cinnabon in Omaha. He lives in a black-and-white world now. There's no glamour. He has no identity. He has no profile. And it's literally shot in black and white.

GOULD: We really thought that we should see the consequences of all the fun. Jimmy McGill is a guy who makes a series of choices. Some of them are very understandable, and some of them are from his gut. And they lead to, inexorably, to one place, and that's the basement of the disappearer's. This is a guy who builds a character, Saul Goodman, and builds an empire of a kind, and then has it all pulled out from under him. And that is painful. And I think it also makes you wonder, what was it all about? What's the point of this guy's life? And I guess it's kind of a dark place to start with, but we thought it would make an interesting frame for the colorful, sometimes silly, sometimes intensely dramatic story of how he got to be the guy he is.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Peter Gould, who is the co-creator and co-showrunner of "Better Call Saul," the new prequel from "Breaking Bad." Peter Gould also wrote for "Breaking Bad." Also with us is Jonathan Banks, who plays Mike Ehrmantraut, a character from “Breaking Bad” who returns for “Better Call Saul.” Let's play the very first scene that the character of Mike Ehrmantraut is in. And Jesse's girlfriend, Jane, has OD'd in bed. Jesse wakes up to find her dead. He calls Walt. Walt calls Saul, the lawyer and Saul sends Mike, the fixer. And Mike cleans up all the evidence of drugs and tells Jesse what to do. Here's the scene in which that happens.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "BREAKING BAD")

JONATHAN BANKS: (As Mike Ehrmantraut) Any other drugs in the house? Think hard. Your freedom depends on it. What about guns? You got any guns in the house? Here's your story - you woke up, you found her, that's all you know. Say it. Say it, please. I woke up, I found her, that's all I know.

AARON PAUL: (As Jesse Pinkman, crying).

(SOUNDBITE OF SLAP)

BANKS: (As Mike Ehrmantraut) Say it. I woke up, I found her, that's all I know.

PAUL: (As Jesse Pinkman) I woke up, I found her, that's all I know.

BANKS: (As Mike Ehrmantraut) Again.

PAUL: (As Jesse Pinkman) I woke up, I found her, that's all I know.

BANKS: (As Mike Ehrmantraut) Again, again.

PAUL: (As Jesse Pinkman) I woke up, I found her, that's all I know. I woke up, I found her, that's all I know (crying).

BANKS: (As Mike Ehrmantraut) Once you call it in, the people who show up will be with the Office of Medical Investigations. That's primarily who you'll talk to. Police officers may arrive, they may not - depends on how busy a morning they're having. Typically, ODs are not a high-priority call. There's nothing here to incriminate you, so I'd be amazed if you got placed under arrest. However, if you do, you say nothing. You tell them you just want your lawyer, and you call Saul Goodman. And do I need to state the obvious? I was not here.

GROSS: (Laughter) That's so great. And that's my guest, Jonathan Banks, as Mike Ehrmantraut. Jonathan Banks, welcome to the conversation.

BANKS: Thank you, Terry.

GROSS: So, you know, it's supposed to be Saul who cleans up things for Jesse and tells him what to say. So Peter Gould, it ended up being Mike. How did it end up being Mike?

GOULD: Well, we were at the very end of season two, and there was this moment when Jesse woke up and Jane was dead. And we were going to have Saul Goodman come in and clean things up. And unfortunately, Bob was not available. Bob Odenkirk was not available to come to town, to come to Albuquerque for that particular scene. And so very much at the last minute, Vince Gilligan had the inspiration of bringing in Mike, the fixer or his private detective, who's been mentioned a couple of times on the show. And now we're going to see him. And through some miracle, we cast Mr. Jonathan Banks.

GROSS: Jonathan Banks, what was the call - did you get a call directly from Vince Gilligan?

BANKS: No, they - Bialy/Thomas, who are wonderful casting directors, they - I went in, and I thought it was going to - you know, I thought I'd do a day’s work and leave. And it snowed, and I went in. And that scene where you hear the slap is - Aaron still complains about it. He didn't know it was coming.

(LAUGHTER)

BANKS: And I loved the boy, but, you know, it was fun. I had a good time and, no, it came as a surprise. But - you tell me if I'm wrong, Peter - but Peter and Tom Schnauz and Vince have been friends forever. And when they were kids in college, they used to watch "Wiseguy." And so I guess my character on "Wiseguy" made an impression on them.

GROSS: And "Wiseguy" was a great TV series that started in 1987 and introduced actors like Stanley Tucci and Kevin Spacey - at least that's where I found out about them.

So you mentioned that Aaron Paul didn't know that you were going to slap him in that scene. Is that considered acceptable for you to do that?

BANKS: It's totally acceptable for me. I'm not the one that got slapped.

(LAUGHTER)

GOULD: The rules that apply to everybody else don't necessarily apply to Mr. Banks.

BANKS: You know, I get that senior pass, you know?

(LAUGHTER)

BANKS: And so, you know, if you can't take a hint from an old guy, I mean, come on, Aaron can take a punch, for goodness sakes.

(LAUGHTER)

BIANCULLI: “Better Call Saul” co-star Jonathan and co-creator Peter Gould, speaking to Terry Gross last year. More after a break, this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. Let’s get back to Terry’s 2015 interview with “Better Call Saul” co-creator Peter Gould and co-star Jonathan Banks. Season two begins Monday.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

GROSS: I always wondered, like, how did Saul and Mike get to know each other? And we find out in "Better Call Saul." Did we know that on "Breaking Bad?" Did we know how they knew each other?

GOULD: Absolutely not.

GROSS: OK, I thought maybe I just missed it.

GOULD: Mike was just conjured up when Saul Goodman needed him, like a genie.

GROSS: OK. So we find out how they meet (laughter) in "Better Call Saul." And the answer is that Mike is working at the ticket booth of the parking lot that adjoins the courthouse, where Saul is working as a public defender. And Saul is always - well, at this point he's Jimmy - and Jimmy is always so just kind of in disarray that he never has time to get - or the money to get the proper amount of, like, parking stickers on his sticker to not pay for the parking. So he's coming to the ticket booth at the parking lot. And at the ticket booth, we hear a voice. And then we later see, as the camera moves, that it's Mike. That Mike - we're going to get to see Mike again. Here's that scene. Jimmy's pulling out, stopping at the ticket booth, and encountering Mike.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "BETTER CALL SAUL")

BANKS: (As Mike Ehrmantraut) Three dollars.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy McGill) I'm validated. See the stickers?

BANKS: (As Mike Ehrmantraut) Well, I see five stickers. You're one shy. It's $3.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy McGill) They gave me - look - I'm validated for the entire day, OK? Five stickers, six stickers, I don't know if I'm stickers because I was in that court back there saving people's lives, so.

BANKS: (As Mike Ehrmantraut) Oh, gee, that's swell. And thank you for restoring my faith in the judicial system. Now, you either pay the $3 or you go back inside and you get an additional sticker.

ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy McGill) Son of a [expletive]. Fine, you win. Hooray for you. Backing up, I have to back up. I need more stickers, don't have enough stickers. Thank you, thank you, very nice - employee of the month over here, yeah. (Clapping). Hooray. Give him a medal.

GROSS: (Laughter). That’s Bob Odenkirk, and my guest Jonathan Banks in the first episode of "Better Call Saul." So Jonathan Banks, you're a former cop in "Breaking Bad" and "Better Call Saul." You've played a lot of cops and former cops over the years. And in "Wiseguy," where I first saw you, a TV series that started in 1987, you played the head of, like, an organized crime task force, and you were the supervisor for the Ken Wahl character who goes undercover every week. So how did you get to play so many cops and former cops? Like, what is it about you, do you think?

BANKS: I'm not very pretty, so I can't play the leading man. So I'm either going to be the bad guy or the cop. And that's - you know what? It's a smart-aleck answer, but it's also there's some truth in that. In the world of Hollywood and television, if you're not beautiful, you better be able to act a little bit, anyway.

GROSS: (Laughter) Were you a tough guy at all as a young man?

BANKS: No, I mean, these guys, they get up and say, hey, I grew up in a tough neighborhood. It was this; it was that; it was (unintelligible). The reality is they were sad neighborhoods. And if you were lucky enough to get out - oh, my gosh, how lucky I am. Yeah, that's my answer.

GROSS: I read your mother was in the CIA.

BANKS: Yeah.

GROSS: Did you know exactly what she did or was that, like, a big secret?

BANKS: Well, I'll give you - I'm going to - my mom's gone now. But my mother started out in life on her own completely at 15 years old as a maid in a Methodist parsonage in Bloomington, Ind. She was a whiz at shorthand in typing and (unintelligible), and they got her a job with the Navy Department in Washington, D.C. World War II came along. There was a period of time where she was Adm. Wilson's private secretary, Adm. Nimitz at one brief time, who was a commander of the Pacific Fleet. After the war, she went to work, managed the secretarial pool, as I understood it, at the CIA under a woman named Peggy Hunt (ph). And back then, they would burn their carbons every day at the end of the day. And they had those oval-backed chairs that the secretaries would sit in. And she taught her girls, if someone came up behind them, that they were to throw their elbows straight back, stand up and address them in a very loud voice. The thought being, if it went past that moment that it was not going to go in their favor. They were secretaries, and whoever the man was that came up behind them was probably one of their superiors. Her bosses knew that that's what she taught, but that was pretty much the recourse that a woman had in the '50s - in the early '50s. There weren't any human resources to go to. And, you know - and I mean this - I should be half the woman that my mother was.

GROSS: It took me a while to realize you were talking about sexual harassment there.

BANKS: Yep, yeah, yeah.

GROSS: And for people who don't know, when you said they burn their carbons, that's carbon paper that makes duplicates of what you're typing. Your mother must have typed a lot of secrets.

BANKS: My mom - my mom - when the transcriptions came back from the Nuremberg trials, she was at the Treasury, and that's where the Secret Service used to be. And there was a tunnel that used to go under - and maybe - probably still there from the Treasury Department to the White House. So yeah, there's a lot of stuff. And as far as sexual harassment goes, she always left her office door wide open. And she raised me by herself.

GROSS: So how did you get into acting?

BANKS: I was a handful. And I used to - at the gym at the school, I would - when I'd go out for whatever practice it was, I would look through the gym window, and I just - I’d wanted to do it since I was probably 5 with Jimmy Durante and Jackie Gleason, who I just loved. And one day in the hall, Ms. Cartwright (ph), who did the plays, yelled at me when I was hanging with some of the boys. And she yelled down the hall and she said, Banks, you're a chicken. She said, I've seen you looking through that window for a long time. And she said, why don't you ever audition for a play? And I auditioned for the junior class play, and I got the lead. And we were doing Shaw's "The Devil's Disciple," which no high school should ever do, but we did. And it changed my life. My mom was having to work all day long and go to school at night, trying to give me a better life. But I was on a street a lot. And that answers some of your questions about the neighborhood or whatever it was. And, you know, when she - she got her teaching degree, and she then took me to this high school where I got very lucky. Hey, you know what I said, Terry, about being lucky? If I say it a thousand times more, it's the way I feel. I honestly feel that I am one of the luckiest human beings that ever walked.

GROSS: I love hearing stories about teachers who, you know, who give students an opportunity that they would have been too embarrassed or shy to ask for or just wouldn't have thought of doing, and that it's transformative. So thanks to that teacher...

BANKS: Well, I'll tell you this...

GROSS: Yeah.

BANKS: That teacher - it was one of those things - and then I did it. And of course back then, you know, there were no computers. The most - I thought they were - only the smart kids did it, is what I thought. And I didn't think I belonged there. And they were all walking around with the slide rules in their pocket and all that, and they were so gentle with me. And they were so good to me because they would - I was from somewhere else or - yeah, I was from somewhere else. And they were dear to me. I look at those kids that, you know, other - back then were called nerds or whatever, and I couldn't have been treated any better. And there was a trade-off, too, because nobody was ever going to put them in a locker ever again. I can tell you that (laughter).

GROSS: Were you going to protect them?

BANKS: You bet ya.

GROSS: The roots of Mike. Here we have it (laughter).

GROSS: Thank you both so much for talking with us.

BANKS: Thank you.

GOULD: Thanks a lot.

BIANCULLI: Peter Gould, co-creator of “Better Call Saul,” and the show’s co-star Jonathan Banks, speaking to Terry Gross last year. After a short break, we’ll listen to back to her 2013 interview with the show’s star, Bob Odenkirk. We’ll also hear film critic David Edelstein’s review of the newest superhero movie, “Deadpool.” I’m David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.
DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Bianculli in for Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "BREAKING BAD")

AARON PAUL: (As Jesse Pinkman) Seriously, when the going gets tough, you don't want a criminal lawyer, all right? You want a criminal lawyer.

BIANCULLI: That's Aaron Paul as Jesse Pinkman in AMC's "Breaking Bad" describing the character of Saul Goodman, the slippery lawyer played by our next guest, Bob Odenkirk. "Breaking Bad" creator Vince Gilligan and writer-producer Peter Gould enjoyed writing dialogue for that character so much, they spun him off into a series called "Better Call Saul," which starts its second season on AMC on Monday. It's mostly a prequel to "Breaking Bad" with Odenkirk as a low-rent defense attorney named Jimmy McGill before he came to adopt the swaggering, shifty persona of Saul Goodman. Terry Gross spoke with Bob Odenkirk in 2013. They began with his first appearance on "Breaking Bad." It's from season two when Walt and Jesse, played by series stars Bryan Cranston and Aaron Paul, were still smalltime meth cookers. The kid who was distributing their meth, Brandon Mayhew, aka Badger, was busted after selling to an undercover agent. In this scene, Badger is being interrogated at an Albuquerque police station when Saul shows up to represent him.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "BREAKING BAD")

BOB ODENKIRK: (As Saul Goodman) All right, who do we have?

MATT JONES: (As Brandon Mayhew) Brandon Mayhew.

ODENKIRK: (As Saul Goodman) Brandon Mayhew, all right. Brandon Mayhew. Oh, here we go - public masturbation.

JONES: (As Brandon Mayhew) What?

ODENKIRK: (As Saul Goodman) I don't get it. What's the kick? Why don't you do it at home like the rest of us with a big flat screen TV, 50 channels of pay-per-view and a Starbucks? That's nice (laughter).

JONES: (As Brandon Mayhew) That ain't me, man. I was the guy who was selling meth, allegedly.

ODENKIRK: (As Saul Goodman) OK, all right. I got you - meth, right. I'm sorry, that was a little transpositional error - nothing a little whiteout can't take care of. Yeah, and a felony quantity.

JONES: (As Brandon Mayhew) Just barely.

ODENKIRK: (As Saul Goodman) Yeah, just barely. The cops around here are like butcher, always go their thumbs on the scales, you know? But good luck arguing that in court (laughter). Let me get down to brass tacks. I'm going to get you a second phone call, OK? You're going to call your mommy or your daddy or your parish priest or your Boy Scout leader, and they're going to deliver me a check for $4,650. I'm going to write that down on the back of my business card, OK? Four, six, five, zero, OK? And I need that in a cashier's check or a money order. It doesn't matter. Actually, I want it in a money order. And make it out to Ice Station Zebra Associates. That's my loan out. It's totally legit. It's done just for tax purposes. And after that, we can discuss Visa or MasterCard, but definitely not American Express, so don't even ask, all right? Any questions?

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

What a great start (laughter) for your character. Bob Odenkirk, welcome to FRESH AIR. What did you know about your character, Saul, when you took the role?

ODENKIRK: Well, I got a phone call and my agent said they're going to offer you a role, and you should say yes to this one. And it wasn't like I had been saying no to a lot of roles. But I guess I do say no maybe more than a few other people. So I said, OK, well, what is it? And he said it's on "Breaking Bad." And at the time, the series was in its second season. It was to appear in the last four episodes of the show. I talked to Vince, and Vince said...

GROSS: This is Vince Gilligan, the creator.

ODENKIRK: Vince Gilligan, the creator. I said let me just talk to him. And he goes he's a sleazy lawyer, his name's Saul Goodman. And I go, well, you know, I'm not Jewish. I said, there's a lot of Jewish actors. I'm sure you could find one. And he goes, oh, no, no. He's not Jewish. He's Irish (laughter). He just changed his name to appeal to the homeboys...

GROSS: (Laughter).

ODENKIRK: ...And gain some stature in their eyes.

GROSS: You've said that you based Saul on Hollywood agents more so than on lawyers.

ODENKIRK: Yeah, I don't know any lawyers.

GROSS: So what kind of agents do you know who are anything like Saul?

ODENKIRK: Oh, my God, a lot of them.

GROSS: Really?

ODENKIRK: Yeah, yeah. They talk really fast. You know, Saul's - the character wants to get something out of whoever he's talking to. He's trying to manipulate them into doing what he wants. And I think that's true for a lot of agents. They're aware of a certain scenario that they can sell, you know? When they're talking to you, they're pitching you in a clever way on just fitting into a business proposition that they know, for some reason, that they can sell, you know, to make deals.

GROSS: Of course...

ODENKIRK: And, yeah.

GROSS: ...You played an agent on...

ODENKIRK: I did.

GROSS: ..."Garry Shandling's Show."

ODENKIRK: Yeah.

GROSS: And you used some similar tactics (laughter).

ODENKIRK: Yeah, my agent - my first agent is the great Ari Emanuel who now runs William Morris.

GROSS: Oh, and he was the basis for - what's his name's character...

ODENKIRK: Ari Gold.

GROSS: Yeah, on "Entourage." So he was your first agent?

ODENKIRK: Yes, and he was my basis for my character on "Larry Sanders," Stevie Grant.

GROSS: Oh.

ODENKIRK: So Ari's inspired a lot of performances.

GROSS: Wait, wait, wait, wait - so does this mean (laughter) that Saul Goodman, the lawyer on "Breaking Bad," is kind of six degrees of separation from Ari Emanuel?

ODENKIRK: Yeah.

GROSS: Yeah, really?

ODENKIRK: Absolutely. But also...

GROSS: Does Ari Emanuel know that (laughter)? Does Ari Emanuel's clients know that (laughter)?

ODENKIRK: I hope he'd be proud of it. I think he would be proud of it. He likes being noticed, and I think he gets a kick out of his people's estimations of his various talents. He's a great guy. I really like that guy a lot. Also, if I might add, I did an impersonation of Robert Evans, the great film producer, who is such an entertaining guy to hear talk, you know? If you've ever heard his book on tape, "The Kid Stays In The Picture," it's incredibly entertaining. And when I saw how many lines I had as Saul, which is a lot more than comedy - in comedy, you'll get, like, two lines and then it's a more of a back-and-forth usually. And Saul Goodman has these long monologues.

GROSS: Oh, 'cause he's a talker.

ODENKIRK: He really is a talker. And what he's doing is he's trying to convince you of something. And when he sees that it's not working, he goes another route. Like, he switches it up in midstream until he finds the tact that will get him where he wants to go. And when I saw those longs I thought, you know, I wish I could do some kind of Robert Evansy-type voice with a little melody in it and a little - and that kind of stop and start cliffhanger thing that Robert Evans does when he goes, you know, did I do the right thing? Heck no. Would I do it again? In a second.

GROSS: (Laughter).

ODENKIRK: You know (laughter)? He leaves you hanging there for just a hair, and it makes you so - it makes you listen even closer, you know? And so I thought I'd steal some of that. I don't know how much I did it, but I do the character as Robert Evans as practice. And then I just do it when I get on stage - in front of the camera, I mean.

GROSS: I think I have the perfect scene here to (laughter) to illustrate what you just said about Saul about how if he's not selling it one way, he's going to change directions and just try something else. And this is a scene from season two, episode eight where Saul's been representing the guy who's been dealing meth for Walt and Jesse, the guy who we heard in the first scene. And Walt and Jesse are really afraid that you're going to let your client talk to the DEA, the Drug Enforcement Agency. And if he talks, that's going to out Jesse and Walt and they're going to be in prison. So they can't allow that to happen. So what they've done is they've basically kidnapped you, taken out to the desert. They've dug you a grave, and they're making you kneel staring into this grave that they've made for you. Meanwhile, they're standing behind you with ski masks on their faces so you can't tell who they are. And then they have guns pointed at your back. You have no idea who they are or what they want or why they've captured you. You suspect that they're representatives of one of the Latin drug cartels. Here's the scene. You speak, or shall I say, whimper (laughter) first, begging for your life.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "BREAKING BAD")

ODENKIRK: (As Saul Goodman) What can I do for you gentlemen? Anything just tell me what you need.

PAUL: (As Jesse Pinkman) This afternoon, an associative of ours offered you $10,000. You should have taken it.

ODENKIRK: (As Saul Goodman) Wait a minute, this is in regards to what's his name?

PAUL: (As Jesse Pinkman) Badger - Brandon Mayhew.

ODENKIRK: (As Saul Goodman) The uncle - the uncle - that was your guy? No offense, guys, but I don't take bribes from strangers, you know? Better safe than sorry, that's my motto. But I'll take your money, sure.

PAUL: (As Jesse Pinkman) No, that offer's expired, yo.

ODENKIRK: (As Saul Goodman) It was kind of low anyways. But, OK, OK, I'll take it. Just tell me what you need, all right? I'm easy. I'm going to keep a happy thought and assume this is just a negotiating tactic.

PAUL: (Jesse Pinkman) All right, listen to me very carefully. You are going to give Badger Mayhew the best legal representation ever. But no deals with the DEA, all right? Badger will not identify anyone to anybody. If he does, you're dead.

ODENKIRK: (As Saul Goodman) Why don't you just kill Badger? I mean, follow me guys, but a mosquito's buzzing around you, it bites you on the ass, you don't go gunning for the mosquito's attorney. Go grab a flyswatter, so to speak. I mean, all due respect, but do I have to spell this out for you?

PAUL: (As Jesse Pinkman) We're not killing Badger, yo.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: What a great scene. And that's my guest Bob Odenkirk as the lawyer, Saul, with Aaron Paul as Jesse and Bryan Cranston as Walt in season two from "Breaking Bad." And this is how you become their lawyer because you realize, like, the way to play this is to tell them, like, you have to tell me everything. I'll help you, but first you have to make me your lawyer by officially paying me. So just, like, put a dollar in my pocket. I'm your lawyer. Now we have attorney-client privilege. You can say anything and I'm going to help you, and you don't have to kill me (laughter). So...

ODENKIRK: Yeah, yeah.

GROSS: ...Brilliant strategy.

ODENKIRK: Great, fun scene. We were in the desert at 2 a.m. in a sandstorm in the middle of nowhere. It was freezing too. It was like 40 degrees.

GROSS: Which is good 'cause you should be shaking with fear so...

ODENKIRK: Yeah, it was quite an experience, and it made me happy to be in show business.

GROSS: So the writing is so good...

ODENKIRK: Yeah.

GROSS: On "Breaking Bad." And, like, with your character, with Saul, there's something so, not only kind of, like, comic and wordy but almost flowery about the way he speaks. Like, he has these guns pointed at his back. He's overlooking his grave...

ODENKIRK: Yes.

GROSS: ...In the scene that we just heard. And he's saying - he's calling them gentlemen, like (laughter)...

ODENKIRK: Yeah, yeah.

GROSS: You know, like, Walt and Jesse who have guns on him. And he's saying, like...

ODENKIRK: Yeah.

GROSS: ...With all due respect.

ODENKIRK: Yeah.

GROSS: Do you love the kind of almost, like, old-fashioned, flowery way he has of speaking?

ODENKIRK: I do. I do. It's fun to talk like that. It's fun to have a character who's that verbose. And believe me, when I got the first script and there were these long speeches, and I thought as a - just coming from comedy, I thought, well, when they rewrite this speech, you know, the final draft is going to be just a short line - it'll just be a line saying I can't help you, you know? And then I got the rewrites, the blue pages - 'cause they're printed on blue paper - about five days before I shot the first scene. And literally, one word had been changed in all those speeches. And it made me go, OK, well, now, what's really going on here? Why did the writers think that my character needs to talk this much? And then that's when I started taking apart those speeches and seeing that there's often a line of logic that Saul is following and then he's finding it a dead end and he has to go another direction. So it's all about manipulating the person he's talking to.

BIANCULLI: Bob Odenkirk, star of AMC's "Better Call Saul," speaking to Terry Gross in 2013. More after a break, this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2013 interview with Bob Odenkirk, star of the AMC series "Better Call Saul." Season two begins Monday.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

GROSS: Tell us something about your childhood - where you grew up, what you were known for among friends in school.

ODENKIRK: (Laughter) Well, I am from Naperville, Ill. And I'm from a family of seven kids. And they're a funny group of people. All of them are funny. My brother Bill is a writer of "The Simpsons." He's been there for...

GROSS: Oh, really?

ODENKIRK: ...About 10 years - yeah. But we were far away from the world of show business in Naperville. And so it took me a long time to imagine, even, that I could be a part of this. But it's a very funny group of people, and there was a lot of good times and a lot of laughter in our house and a lot of impersonations of people that we'd met that day. And it's a mostly Irish, some German, Catholic family. And my mother's very funny, though she doesn't really know it. She's a - makes a lot of wisecracks all through her day, and she laughs a lot. And my father was kind of a good joker too. Although he liked to tell, like, bar jokes and he - when I was young, he liked "Hee Haw," which escaped me.

GROSS: Did he actually, like, tell jokes?

ODENKIRK: Yeah, he told joke jokes, you know...

GROSS: Joke jokes?

ODENKIRK: ...Like you pick up in a bar.

GROSS: Do you remember any of the joke jokes he told?

ODENKIRK: I don't. I don't. I never liked them. I never liked the jokes. My dad I didn't like that much either but...

GROSS: Oh (laughter).

ODENKIRK: ...I tolerated him.

GROSS: So when you became a comic, having had your father tell a lot of jokes but not...

ODENKIRK: Yeah.

GROSS: But you not liking joke jokes...

ODENKIRK: But not my kind of jokes.

GROSS: Yeah, exactly. So what did that make you want to turn to when you become a comic?

ODENKIRK: Well, nothing consciously. I just did what I did. I didn't think about that, except I always felt like comedy was about honesty, you know? And somehow, saying how you really feel about things, you know, because for me, it's about getting to the core of things and speaking honestly about hypocrisy and stuff. But there was a kind of comedy I saw a lot of when I was a kid that was almost the opposite. It was like this strange kind of covering up of genuine motivation. All those Bob Hope specials just made me cringe when I was a kid. You never found them funny. And all the sexual innuendo just made me crazy, even though as a child, I didn't know what sex was about. But I just remember watching and thinking, why don't you just say you're horny, you know...

GROSS: (Laughter).

ODENKIRK: ...Instead of rolling your eyes? What a weird thing. We all know what you mean. You know, it just seemed dishonest in a strange way. And I didn't know why anyone would find it funny. When I found Monty Python, that's what really spoke to me.

GROSS: People like your character so much that you were on a recent cover of The New Republic.

ODENKIRK: Yeah.

GROSS: And the cover was for a story about how big law firms are having a hard time making big money now. And so...

ODENKIRK: Yes.

GROSS: ...There's a picture of you on the cover in your full Saul Goodman persona. And the caption reads are you downwardly mobile, terrified of your colleagues, unsure of what your kids look like, realizing that after selling your soul for the promise of a cushy life, your whole field is going to hell? You must be an attorney. I'm wondering if you get a lot of reactions to Saul from lawyers - if they like your character or if they're offended by your character.

ODENKIRK: I've heard more than once people say I got to tell you, I know lawyers like Saul, which is always funny to me 'cause it occurs to me that maybe they mean to say they're like Saul (laughter) - or not me but all the other guys in this profession.

GROSS: So one more question. When...

ODENKIRK: Yeah.

GROSS: ...People see you on the street - people who are fans of "Breaking Bad."

ODENKIRK: Yes.

GROSS: What do they say to you? Is there a commonly said thing?

ODENKIRK: Well, they all say better call Saul.

GROSS: Yeah.

ODENKIRK: But some of them - and this is so weird, Terry.

GROSS: Yeah.

ODENKIRK: And this is like - I think this is because it's so much more famous than anything I've done. It's so much bigger. So I - this is where we trip into the weird place of sort of a version of success or fame that is so strange. I get this - I got it today on the way into this building. I get this - I'm going to shout this out, so I'm going to back away from the mic.

GROSS: OK.

ODENKIRK: Sal.

GROSS: (Laughter).

ODENKIRK: OK, so that guy - this has happened more than once. That guy doesn't know my name, only knows me from "Breaking Bad" but doesn't know "Breaking Bad" that well and has seen it enough to know I play some - I don't look like the character. So he knows it well enough to recognize my face, even though he doesn't know the show that well. That's a weird place to get to. He doesn't know the name of the character, so he hasn't watched the show that closely. But he knows it well enough to recognize my face even without the hairpieces in and the suit and all that other stuff.

GROSS: So what do you say in response?

ODENKIRK: I go, uh-huh.

GROSS: (Laughter) And then keep walking?

ODENKIRK: And I keep walking.

GROSS: (Laughter) And what if somebody really does know the show and they say, I love you in the show, I love the character of Saul?

ODENKIRK: I say thank you so much. I'm so lucky to be a part of that show.

GROSS: Right, well, I'm so lucky to be able to watch you and it (laughter). Thank you so much...

ODENKIRK: Thank you so much.

GROSS: ...For talking with us. It's really been a pleasure.

ODENKIRK: I appreciate it.

BIANCULLI: Bob Odenkirk, the star of "Better Call Saul," speaking to Terry Gross in 2013. Season two of the AMC spinoff of "Breaking Bad" begins Monday
DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. One thing nonreaders of comic books have come to realize is that Marvel has a lot of superhero characters. The latest one to hit the screen is Deadpool. Born Wade Winston Wilson, Deadpool appeared as a villain in early '90s comics before evolving into a rude, fast-talking hero. Now he has his own big-budget movie starring Ryan Reynolds as the ex-Special Forces soldier turned super heroic mutant. Film critic David Edelstein has this review.

DAVID EDELSTEIN, BYLINE: Marvel Studios might be the most powerful entertainment entity in history, discounting maybe Disney or the Roman Empire's "Gladiator" franchise. It's up there. And every time I gear up to rant some more about Hollywood throwing its resources into franchises, tent poles and now universes at the expense of other kinds of movies, along comes something disarming - Marvel's "Jessica Jones," for example, the grown up, female-centric Netflix series with Krysten Ritter, or "Deadpool," the unprecedented R-rated Marvel romp with dirty sex talk and tons of splatter.

Directed by Tim Miller, "Deadpool" is a send up of Marvel superhero movies but in no way a takedown of them. It's meant to enhance the genre, to flatter the audience for being hip enough to get the in jokes. Ryan Reynolds stars as Wade, who dons a Spiderman-like costume and takes the name de mutant "Deadpool" after being hideously mutilated by the British bad guy, Ajax, played by Ed Skrein. If you're one of those geeks who immediately thinks, didn't Reynolds star in the failed movie of the DC comic, "The Green Lantern?", screenwriters Rhett Reese and Paul Wernick are way ahead. They serve up "Green Lantern" barbs from the get-go. Wade then questions his own stature, turning to the camera to say he knows we're thinking, why does this guy get his own movie? In one scene, he's joined by two distinctly unfriendly characters from the "X-Men" series - no, not from the blockbuster movies. Wade tells us the studio can't afford those A-list actors. Instead, there's a computer-generated, Russian-accented steel colossus called Colossus, voiced by Stefan Kapicic, and a punk girl called Negasonic Teenage Warhead, played by Brianna Hildebrand. She's tweeting at the beginning of the encounter. When Gina Carano as Ajax's vicious sidekick, Angel Dust, leaps into the battle from on high, Wade knows exactly what's coming.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "DEADPOOL")

RYAN REYNOLDS: (As Deadpool) She's going to do a superhero landing. Wait for it.

(MUSIC)

REYNOLDS: (As Deadpool) Woo - superhero landing. You know, that's really hard on your knees. Totally impractical. They all do it. You're a lovely lady, but I'm saving myself for Francis. That's why I brought him.

STEFAN KAPICIC: (COLOSSUS) I prefer not to hit a woman. So please...

REYNOLDS: (As Deadpool) I mean, that's why I brought her? Oh, no, finish your tweet. Just give us a second. There you go, hashtag it. Go get her, tiger.

(MUSIC)

EDELSTEIN: Those aren't the best one-liners in "Deadpool," but there are great ones. I'd estimate 50 percent hit, another 30 whiz by inoffensively and only 20 percent are stinkers - a hell of a good percentage given the sheer number of jokes. And Ryan Reynolds knows how to skip along the surface of the role, but, when he needs to, bring out the big dramatic guns. He's an underrated actor, although maybe not after this film. There's nothing new about "Deadpool's" brand of self-conscious humor. In some ways, it resembles the old Hope and Crosby "Road" pictures, with one obvious exception - the action is played straight. Actually, it's lavishly, gratuitously gory with a gleeful kick, and at one point, the hero is tortured so cruelly for so long, I had to look away. Typically, Wade turns to us and says something along the lines of, this is where it becomes a horror movie, which makes this a have your torture porn and make fun of it too film. It's like the movie has eyes on the audience. There's one in joke alluding to actors in another Marvel series that had me laughing for a full minute. It anticipated my own response by half a second and patted me on the back for being in sync. Wade has some surprisingly tender and smutty scenes with the love of his life, Vanessa, played by Morena Baccarin, who's appeared in several superhero vehicles and was Brody's wife in the early seasons of "Homeland." Wade tells us she's not just another sex object pedaled by Hollywood with a smirk that acknowledges she is.

I feel a bit like a shill for recommending "Deadpool." One reason it snared me was that its hero functions as a snotty film critic with muscles. The movie is reminiscent of the Web series "Honest Trailers," which uses films' own selling tools to lampoon them. "Deadpool" is so on the wavelength of the mainstream audience that it makes you think, this is Marvel's universe and we're just paying to be in it.

BIANCULLI: David Edelstein is film critic for New York magazine.
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