Actress Joan Cusack.

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: MARCH 23, 2000
Time: 12:00
Tran: 032301np.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Interview With Joan Cusack
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:06

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TERRY GROSS, HOST: From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with FRESH AIR.

GROSS: On today's FRESH AIR, actress Joan Cusack, co-star of such films comedies as "Broadcast News," "Working Girl," "In and Out," and "Runaway Bride." She's in the new film "High Fidelity," which stars her brother, John.

Later we talk with Ted Heller about his new novel, "Slab Rat," a satire of the magazine world. He's worked for several magazines, including "Spy," where he chose many of the photos for the feature Separated at Birth.

That's all coming up on FRESH AIR.

First, the news.

(BREAK)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

My guest is actress Joan Cusack. During her career, she's received Academy Award nominations for her roles in two comedies, "Working Girl," in which she played a secretary, and "In and Out," in which she played a woman who finds out that her fiance is secretly gay, a secret he's kept even from himself. In the film "Broadcast News," it was Cusack who made the now-famous last-minute dash into the control room with the tape clip that needed to get on the air.

Cusack has co-starred in several films with her younger brother, John Cusack, including "Say Anything," "Grosse Point Blank," and "Cradle Will Rock." Now she's in the new movie "High Fidelity," based on the popular Nick Hornby novel. The movie stars her brother, John Cusack, as the owner of a used-record store who's obsessed with records and with the reasons why his relationships never last. Joan plays his ex-girlfriend's good friend.

In this scene, John is at a bar with Joan hoping to get some advice about how to get his girlfriend back now that she's moved in with a new boyfriend. John's been calling their house a lot.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "HIGH FIDELITY")

JOAN CUSACK, ACTRESS: You have got to stop calling her. You're really upsetting her, and him.

JOHN CUSACK, ACTOR: I don't care about him.

CUSACK: Well, you should.

JOHN CUSACK: Why?

CUSACK: Because all you're doing is forming a little unit, them against you. Before you started all this psychotic madness, there was no unit. It was just three people in a mess. But now they've got something in common, and you don't want to make anything worse.

JOHN CUSACK: How could it get any worse than Laura with Ian? Come on, Liz.

CUSACK: Can I ask you a question? And you can think about it if you want to.

JOHN CUSACK: Just what is it?

CUSACK: Why do you want Laura back so badly?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GROSS: Joan Cusack, welcome to FRESH AIR.

CUSACK: Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here.

GROSS: What did you relate to most about the story?

CUSACK: I think I was just so glad that he told a story about a guy's journey to commit to a relationship. (laughs) I just think that's -- and he really sort of tells all their secrets, I think, in a way, and I just loved that he -- I mean, I related -- I didn't relate to his journey, but I related to the whole struggle of that.

GROSS: Have you known a lot of guys who wouldn't commit?

CUSACK: Well, yes. I mean, I think it's a real growth thing. It's like, I mean -- and he says it in the movie, at some point you just realize that fantasy doesn't deliver. And it's not that they -- guys -- or people -- I mean, I think it's not just guys, too, it's women too. But at a certain point you just think, Oh, do I have to settle and get deeper and really be who I really am deep down and see who this other person is really deep down? And you know it's not going to be all the flash, and really get to the real part of things.

And I think that's a hard transition in life.

GROSS: Had you read the novel before you were cast I the movie?

CUSACK: I hadn't, actually, and so many people have told me since that, you know, God, it was just their favorite book. I don't know how it skipped me, but I did read it afterwards.

GROSS: You read it after you were cast, or after you made it?

CUSACK: After I made it.

GROSS: Why did you wait till afterwards?

CUSACK: Well, I don't know, I think I just thought I wanted to do this script and work on what John was doing. I didn't know if it would change my perception of things.

GROSS: Did it?

CUSACK: No, not really. (laughs) I mean, I should have just read it. I don't know, maybe I was just busy with my son or something. (laughs)

GROSS: When your brother makes a movie, do you assume that he'll try to find a role for you in it?

CUSACK: You know, I don't assume it, but I always hope it, because I love working with him, and I love supporting him, because he's always done sort of more leading roles than I've done, and it's just a hard -- I think it's a hard job to do that, and it's nice to have people around you to support you. And I just believe in him so much that I -- it's -- I'm happy to be there and just be another ear too.

GROSS: Now, when did you first work together? Did you work together as kids?

CUSACK: Well, he's four years younger than me, so -- and we grew up doing theater and theater games together in Evanston. But at -- when you're growing up, that's kind of a big difference. You know, I was going to high school when he was in fifth grade, and then I was leaving high school, so we didn't really ever work together then.

But we were in similar theater program in Evanston, right outside of Chicago, that was run by Bern and Joyce Piven (ph) that -- where we kind of shaped our -- the culture of our work. So we had a lot of similar experiences and vocabulary and that kind of stuff.

GROSS: Tell me a little bit about what this children's theater was like.

CUSACK: It was Bern and Joyce Piven who were members originally of the Compass Players, which came out of the University of Chicago, that Mike Nichols and Elaine May were a part of, and Ed Asner and Paul Sills. And they -- it was sort of the '60s, and it was very sort of story theater, improvisation, kind of humanistic, kind of theater work, where you're developing as a human as well as an artist, you're -- it wasn't about putting on things, it was more kind of developing from a creative -- developing your creativity in performance.

And Bern and Joyce Piven, who were members of that club, just went on to start a theater for kids, which was just so wonderful, and it was just sort of a happenstance thing that my older sister and I did after school, like, an after-school thing. And I think my dad was always involved creatively in creative writing. And so there was a real connection there anyway.

And we just grew up doing that, like, I think I was 7 and my sister was 8, and John did it when he got to be, I think, you know, 7 or 8 too. And we did Ray Bradbury stories and J.D. Salinger and Chekov. And it was sort of this wonderful little jewel. And, you know, it was just kind of a happenstance thing.

GROSS: What were some of the ways that the adults around the theater got the children to think about self-transformation into a role?

CUSACK: Well, a lot of it dealt with a story-theater technique, which was sort of like you would be telling the story as well as being the character. So you would say, you know, like if you were doing -- we did a J.D. Salinger piece, you know, like a "Franny and Zooey," and you'd say, "And then Franny picked up the phone and cradled it in her arm -- her hand and spoke to Seymour."

And so you were present on stage as a person, which allowed your -- allowed you to be yourself there, I think philosophically in a way, you weren't, like, just becoming someone else, you were there and able to then use your feeling to transform into something, or into that person, so it was much more accessible, strangely.

GROSS: As the older sister, and you were four years older than John, were you more serious about theater at first, and were you supposed to look out for him?

CUSACK: Yes, no, not really, I think I was just sort of busy doing it myself. And I think because he was -- you know, there was five kids in my family, so everyone was just sort of busy kind of doing their thing. And he -- as soon as he actually started doing it, he was really good, and, you know, I think he started doing commercials in Chicago when he was, like, 12 or 13. And he started doing professional work kind of right away.

So he kind of was launched on his own really soon.

GROSS: What did you think? Were you envious, or -- you were actually making movies already yourself.

CUSACK: I had done, like, a little part in things, but I was in college at the time. And I think I was glad that I was in college, but it was just sort of amazing that he was sort of -- you know, just sort of taking off that way. And, you know, if you ever meet him, he's such a great Irish politician, in a way. (laughs) It was just -- it made perfect sense that he was off doing that.

GROSS: What do you mean by a great Irish politician?

CUSACK: Well, he just, you know, works the room and enjoys it and loves people, and loves what he's doing. And he's very extroverted.

GROSS: Now, your first film role was at the age of 15, you were in "My Bodyguard." Describe your part.

CUSACK: Basically, I was just kind of a glorified extra. They were doing this movie, Martin Mull and Ruth Gordon and Chris Makepeace, and it was Tony Bill's movie. I think he had done another one before that. But just played a kid in a classroom. It was sort of about a boy who takes on the sort of weird sort of smoldering who-knows-what's-going-on brooding guy to be his bodyguard, and so it was sort of a classroom kids' story. And so I was one of the other kids in the classroom.

And it was nice, because I, you know, got the part, and I couldn't believe it, and just being an extra in it, really. And then we just -- we started filming it, and Tony Bill said, "You know, you have a nice energy. I think we're going to, you know, maybe, you know, have you do a few scenes with Chris, and we'll write a few things for you. Would that be OK with you?" And I was, like, Oh, my God! I couldn't believe it.

GROSS: How did it affect your status in high school to have a small part in a real movie?

CUSACK: I think it just made me feel really good. I think there's -- like, the popular girls were still the popular girls, and the -- it was such a big high school, and there were so many cliques and everything that, you know, I think -- and it hadn't come out or anything, so no one really knew about it. But I knew about it, and it just -- it made me feel sort of special. Which was great, because I needed all the help I could get in my school. (laughs)

GROSS: Now, you got in on the John Hughes era of filmmaking. You had a small part in "Sixteen Candles." So tell us about your part in that.

CUSACK: That was -- I think at that point, actually, it was, like, right before I was going to college, and I just had this, you know, silly part in it with my neck brace, and -- but it was great...

GROSS: Yes, just describe the neck brace that you had to wear.

CUSACK: It was a neck brace, and I think it hooked onto my braces -- or no, no, I don't think it did, actually, it was just sort of like a -- like if you were in a car accident kind of neck brace that you -- you know, you just have to keep your neck still. And then it sort of goes over your shoulders so it just sort of stabilizes you, and thus the comedy ensues.

GROSS: So you had made at least two movies before you even got out of high school. Did that make you think, like, I got to do this, I got to keep doing this?

CUSACK: I think it was certainly encouraging, and actually now, you know, I realize how crucial that is, to have experiences when you're younger that give you confidence, because it's such a hard job to stay confident in, because you don't have consistent work, and you can see -- when you go to an audition you can see there's so many talented people, and how do you at that moment just feel like you can really do it?

GROSS: You went to college. You went to the University of Wisconsin at Madison?

CUSACK: Uh-huh.

GROSS: Did your parents insist that you go to college instead of just trying to go to Hollywood right away? Or was that your idea?

CUSACK: They definitely supported going to college. They both had great experiences at their college, and the argument that they said to me was that, If you want to be an actor your whole life, you can, but this is a chance to learn about all the other parts of the world, and all the other kinds of things that are going on, and, you know, the great -- reading great Russian novels and learning about character from another point of view. And, you know, you'll always have that education, and you can't -- it's just so powerful.

GROSS: Were they right?

CUSACK: I think so. I mean, I think obviously if you're Uta Hagen and you're studying acting as deeply as she does, you have that training of depth that sometimes if you're just doing acting, you know, life upon life, or just feeling, like, once removed from life and studying that too long, I think you can -- or I feel, anyway, that you lose something, that having that background of just life itself as the most important thing and the most diverse thing really was powerful to me.

GROSS: My guest is actress Joan Cusack. We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Joan Cusack, and she co-stars in the new movie "High Fidelity," which stars her brother, John Cusack.

In 1985 to '86, you were a cast member of "Saturday Night Live," and were you out of college yet when you started (inaudible)?

CUSACK: Yes.

GROSS: You were out of college. How long out of college?

CUSACK: I actually had just gotten out of college.

GROSS: So who else was in the cast with you during your year on "Saturday Night Live"?

CUSACK: Let's see. Nora Dunn and Jon Lovitz and Dennis Miller and Robert Downey Jr., and Randy Quaid, and Danitra Vance, Damon Wayans.

GROSS: You know, it's funny, it's really a terrific group of actors, and yet it's hardly considered one of the high points in the history of "Saturday Night Live." I wonder why that is.

CUSACK: (laughs) I don't think anyone watched it that year at all. In -- you know, it was -- they were going to cancel the show, actually, that year, and Loren Michaels at the last minute decided to come back. And I think maybe they had two months to kind of get everything together. And they sort of went with more sort of actory type people than comedians, I think, was part of their thinking.

But no one kind of got a chance to sort of get to know each other that much beforehand, I think, and it was all so fast, and somehow you were, you know, doing this live show, and so I don't know if that was part of it too.

GROSS: Did you write any of your own sketches?

CUSACK: No, I never sort of worked that way before. It was always sort of -- I had done improv and theater, and, you know, suddenly I was in, like, an office building with typewriters, and I was, like, How do you do this? (laughs) And, you know, a lot of it was, like, sort of like socializing and trying to figure out what you could do and getting to know the writers and seeing if you had a similar sense of humor, and they'd come up with an idea, and you could think, you know, if you could do that or make that work, or...

I mean, I sort of felt like I had, you know, nicely, I had those little bits of confidence that I felt like, you know, if someone wrote something, I could make it work, or I could try to make it work. And so I kind of relied on that.

GROSS: So did you have to compete for parts, or lobby the writers for good parts?

CUSACK: That was sort of part of it, I think. It was a really, really competitive place, and the writes were all trying to compete to get their stuff on, and I think that -- I wasn't sort of -- I know I was competitive and driven, but I just didn't feel -- I didn't feel quite that aggressive -- I wasn't that good at being aggressive in that way, I don't think.

GROSS: Is that why you left after one season?

CUSACK: Well, yes, I think, I mean, that and they fired me. (laughs)

GROSS: Oh. Oh, that. (laughs)

CUSACK: I like to think it was (laughs) some choice I made. No, no. They just -- it wasn't working. And it wasn't working for me too. I was miserable. (laughs) I think I wound up in the hospital, actually. I had, like, some surgery, and it's, like, horrible. (laughs)

GROSS: Did they operate on your stress glands or something?

CUSACK: Yes. (laughs) Yes. No, but it's -- you know, I'm so grateful that I was on that show, because again, it was just -- it was, like, God, to have done that, you just have a little bit more confidence to do things, even if it didn't go well. I -- you know, I felt so badly about it that I didn't make it on that show, and it wasn't right for me, you know, that -- how could it -- you know, I loved Gilda Radner, how could it have not worked out? And then I realized it wasn't the right environment for me, you know, that I was better doing theater stuff or just straight acting stuff.

GROSS: Well, it certainly helped establish your identity as a comic actress. Was that the identity you wanted, or did you want more dramatic parts too?

CUSACK: You know, I'd grown up doing both, but I sort of had always -- you know, in our house, sort of comedy was a really important value. We grew up watching Mel Brooks movies and Monty Python and "Fernwood Tonight" and "Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman," and, you know, my dad always played "The Producers" in the backyard every summer.

GROSS: Oh, great.

CUSACK: It was just, like, that was part of -- an important -- really an important value that they were trying to pass on, is comedy. So I think that was always in my heart. But, you know, I liked doing, you know, like, diverse things. I liked doing theater and more serious things too.

GROSS: Joan Cusack will be back in the second half of the show.

Here's a scene from the comedy "In and Out," for which she received an Academy Award nomination. It's her wedding night, but the wedding has been called off because the groom has just admitted he's gay. She's drinking in a bar, wearing her wedding dress, talking with a tabloid reporter played by Tom Selleck.

I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "IN AND OUT")

CUSACK: Please sleep with me.

TOM SELLECK, ACTOR: What?

CUSACK: Three years!

SELLECK: Oh, my God.

CUSACK: Three years of songfests and long talks and loving, supportive friendship!

SELLECK: God!

CUSACK: This is my wedding night! I'm there, I'm ready. This is a medical condition.

SELLECK: Gee, thank you, but I can't.

CUSACK: What, are you married? Are you seeing someone? I don't care.

SELLECK: No, I...

CUSACK: Come on! I'm a woman!

SELLECK: I'm gay.

CUSACK: Is everybody gay? Is this the Twilight Zone? Oh! Oh, hey, oh, hi, hi, will you marry me? (inaudible), (inaudible). Stop, stop, please! Stop, you have to stop! (inaudible), I need a heterosexual code red!

(HORN HONKS, THUD)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BREAK)

GROSS: Coming up, more with actress Joan Cusack. And we'll talk with writer Ted Heller about his new novel, "Slab Rat." It's a satire of the magazine publishing world, a place Heller is familiar with, having worked at "Spy," "Details," "Vanity Fair," and "Premiere."

(BREAK)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with actress Joan Cusack. She's in the new movie "High Fidelity," which stars her brother, John Cusack. Her other films include "Runaway Bride," "In and Out," "Working Girl," "Say Anything," and "Broadcast News."

Let me ask you about one of the comic scenes that you're best known for, and this is the scene in "Broadcast News" in which you're the person who has to run down the hall from the office into the control room, delivering the video clips just a moment before it is due to be broadcast. Tell us how that scene was shot.

CUSACK: God, that actually is one of the -- my favorite things I've ever done, that movie. I just think it's such a great film. But they shot it in lots of different pieces, and so it was like sort of a running -- not a running gag, but a running theme that we were shooting all through the film. There was maybe seven or eight pieces of it that we did at different times.

And, yes, it was, you know -- and at the end of it, I remember, they gave me a huge, like, those -- one of those horseshoe wreaths like horses get at the end of a race. (laughs) It was so cute and sweet.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "BROADCAST NEWS")

CUSACK: We have a minute and a half. It's my responsibility to tell the control room and New York that we won't be ready.

ACTRESS: Uh-uh, we'll be ready.

CUSACK: In 84 seconds? Fifteen seconds -- oh, God. You're saying, Oh, God.

ACTRESS: Play it in, Bobbie, back out (ph).

CUSACK: You're going to go (inaudible) and the screen will be black, and they're going to go to black because we're not there. (inaudible)? We're not going to make it!

ACTOR: Whoops. Whoops.

CUSACK: (shrieks)

ACTRESS: Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie...

ACTOR: Blair...

CUSACK: (shrieks)

ACTRESS: Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie...

ACTOR: Blair...

CUSACK: (shrieks)

ACTRESS: Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie...

CUSACK: (shrieks)

ACTOR: Blair...

CUSACK: (shrieks) Oh, God -- (shrieks)

ACTRESS: Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie...

ACTOR: We got it!

CUSACK: (shrieks)

(CROSSTALK)

CUSACK: (inaudible)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GROSS: What was the (inaudible) part for you in that scene?

CUSACK: I think there was a part where they wanted me to slide under this filing cabinet, and I -- they actually had, like, a stunt guy, like, helping me, and they had, like, silicone -- they sprayed silicone on the floor, and I had -- and, like, newspapers, and I had, like, knee pads on. They wanted me to get really close to the filing cabinet.

And I remember the stunt guy at the time was kind of out there, like, a little Hollywoody. And he was, like, "You've got to be the cabinet, and then be underneath the cabinet," and, you know, I don't know what he was saying. But whatever, I just was, like, All right, I'll just try that. (laughs) And anyway, it was -- I think I got really close to the cabinet. (laughs) So that was a little scary, actually. But it was, you know, like, my head did, like I almost hit it.

GROSS: You got an Academy Award nomination for your role in "Working Girl." You and Melanie Griffith played secretaries, and she is -- through all these, you know, mistaken identity things ends up becoming a kind of...

CUSACK: Executive.

GROSS: ... executive, thank you, the word I was looking for. And so, particularly early in the movie, you both have really big hair. How did you like yourself in this real teased, high hair?

CUSACK: Well, I feel that it was, like, my Kabuki performance. (laughs) But honestly, the guy that did it, Roy Helland (ph), had -- he was the makeup and hair artist who'd worked with Liv Ullman for years and years and years. And he was a fascinating perf -- makeup art -- and hair artist. And he did the cool -- I mean, it was such a -- you know, I know this -- secretaries on the Staten Island ferry had 20 minutes from going from Staten Island to Manhattan, and everyone was jammed in the bathroom.

And we actually went and took the ferry, you know, when -- at work time, teasing their hair, and so it was a do you could do in 20 minutes. You know, they all came in just with their -- having showered and did their makeup and hair on the boat.

And he was -- he just turned it into such a craft. He actually, like, bleached the bottom of my hair just a tiny little bit, so it just looked like it was fried, you know, not like it was, you know, a color that had grown out, but actually just fried hair. (laughs) And then, I mean, I think now about doing that, and I'm just so grateful he was so good. (laughs) Because it was really just a tot -- it was, like, totally enhanced the character, was the whole -- you know, I barely had to do anything, and it was funny.

GROSS: In the recent film "Runaway Bride," you were Julia Roberts' friend. You've played a bunch of best friend kind of parts. I'm wondering if you like Eve Arden and the kind of prototypical best-friend actors.

CUSACK: I mean, I think Eve Arden did some great performances, really. And I actually have come to really like the best friend role. At first, I think I -- because I did it in "Working Girl" too, and have done it before, and in "Runaway Bride," I thought it wasn't really worth it for me to do it again unless I could sort of make it meaningful for myself in some way, and really say, Wait a minute, if I'm going to be the best friend, I want to be what a best friend really is, and, like, really say something to my friend that a best friend would say or behave in a way that was meaningful in that way.

And that way, the part became meaningful to me. And I think, you know, in general I've played a lot of character parts, and I've found that to be a great kind of wonderful life as an actor, because, you know, and I know it especially from John, because he's always done kind of leading roles. But it's such a -- there's such a pressure on you, and it's such a demanding schedule.

And there's something wonderful about being able to go in and do your part and show up and support the film and be part of the story and not have to carry the whole thing, and then go home and, you know, be a leading lady in your real life. And I -- so I've been really kind of grateful for those parts, they've really fit my life really nicely.

GROSS: You know, for someone who's played the best friend in several films, I wonder if you have a best friend in real life, if you have time for friends in real life. You are the mother of two, I think, you're married, you have your film career. Do you have time for friends?

CUSACK: Yes, I think, you know, and I love that about the kind of parts I've been able to have, that I do have time for that, and I've been able to, I think, live in Chicago and just concentrate on having a marriage that works, that I try hard to make work, and a family. I'm actually eight months pregnant...

GROSS: Oh, yes, congratulations!

CUSACK: Thank you.

GROSS: This is your third?

CUSACK: It's my second, actually.

GROSS: Oh.

CUSACK: But -- and have friends and family and a social life and a culture and a commun -- be part of a community, because, you know, as -- I just feel like those are things that ultimately are the most meaningful, you know, that extraordinary things in life are the ordinary things in life, I know, that saying always sticks with me, because I just find it to be so true, and, I mean, what would you do with your friends in life that just...

And I'm, you know, it's easy for me to say, I've had a great career and been able to make some money. But I mean it sincerely that it just doesn't -- it's -- I just haven't found those things to be -- you know, it's nothing like coming home and getting a hug from my son, it's just -- it's just not that, it's just so much more powerful.

GROSS: When, you know, when you realized that a lot of Hollywood was going to be about, How much do you weigh, and how beautiful are you? did you feel in a way like you were back in high school and the popular kids were ruling the world?

CUSACK: (laughs) Right. It is like that. It's just -- it's kind of a very -- I mean, I -- I don't mean to be judgmental, or -- it's just for me, anyway, I think, it's just a very, you know, juvenile kind of thinking, ultimately. You know, it's not very sophisticated. And it's -- and Hollywood is more than that, I think. There's incredibly creative, talented people there, and, you know, lots of -- especially -- well, not now, I mean, I think there's always been amazing women doing amazing things out there, and men, and you just have to find them.

But if your mindset is stuck feeling like you've got to fit into this perfect world and have everything look perfect, you just -- it's just never-ending failure. (laughs)

GROSS: I want to wish you good luck with your new baby.

CUSACK: Oh, thank you.

GROSS: And will you stop working for a while until the baby...

CUSACK: I'm actually going to do a sitcom with Jim Brooks in Chicago starting probably the midseason replacement.

GROSS: Oh!

CUSACK: Yes, and it's great, because...

GROSS: You can stay home and work.

CUSACK: So I get to stay -- live and work in the same place, and have a kind of a very structured sort of stable working life, and have a family, and I'm so -- I mean, I'm so lucky and thrilled and happy that Jim Brooks is willing to come to Chicago and work a little bit, because he's going to do it in Chicago.

GROSS: And Jim Brooks did "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" and "Broadcast News," in which you co-starred.

CUSACK: Right.

GROSS: So what's the sitcom going to be about?

CUSACK: It's actually based on this woman, Gwen Maxay (ph), who's done pieces for NPR, her -- it's kind of based on her life, and it's about being heroic, I think, in a marriage and sort of trying to shrug of neurosis, and her -- she has a book that just came out, "Lip Shtick," that's really great, that sort of has the feel of her humor. And she's really...

And Jim Brooks heard her on NPR and her little pieces and sort of contacted her, I think, five years ago. And I had contacted him probably five or six years ago too about trying to do a sitcom, and he said, "Oh, there's serendipity to these things," and -- which wasn't what I wanted to hear at the time. But now I -- God, it's really great, because she's come along and written quite a bit now, and is really going to write the show, and lives in Chicago, and it's really, really exciting.

GROSS: Well, I wish you the best, and I thank you very much for talking with us.

CUSACK: Oh, it's just a pleasure.

GROSS: Joan Cusack is in the new film "High Fidelity," which opens next week. It stars her brother, John Cusack. He'll be our guest next week.

Coming up, Ted Heller, author of the new novel "Slab Rat," a satire of the magazine industry.

This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia, PA
Guest: Joan Cusack
High: Actress Joan Cusack has received two best supporting actress Oscar nominations -- in 1988 for her role in "Working Girl," and in 1997 for her role in "In and Out." Her other movies include "Broadcast News," "Addams Family Values," "Grosse Pointe Blank," "Arlington Road," "The Cradle Will Rock" and "Runaway Bride." She stars with her brother John Cusack in the new film High Fidelity, based on the novel by Nick Hornby.
Spec: Joan Cusack; Entertainment; Movie Industry

Please note, this is not the final feed of record

Copy: Content and programming copyright 2000 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 2000 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Interview With Joan Cusack

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: MARCH 23, 2000
Time: 12:00
Tran: 032302NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Interview With Ted Heller
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:48

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TERRY GROSS, HOST: Ted Heller's first novel, "Slab Rat," is set in the world of magazine publishing. The novel satirizes the contents of glossy magazines and the office politics of the writers and editors.

Heller is familiar with that world. He's worked at "Vanity Fair," "Details," "Premiere," and "Spy," mostly in the photography departments. Heller is the son of writer Joseph Heller, best known for the novel "Catch-22."

"Slab Rats"' main character, Alan Post, is an assistant editor at "It" magazine, part of the magazine empire controlled by Versailles Publishing. In order to fit in at the magazine, he's made up a fake upper-class background. Now he has to figure out a way to advance up the magazine's corporate ladder.

Here's a reading about his working life before "It" magazine, when he worked at "Here" magazine.

TED HELLER, "SLAB RAT": "It's true that I worked at `Here' for a while, and it was boring, mind-numbingly, lethally boring, except for the fact that I was constantly on my toes lest someone discover that I didn't really belong there.

"The only thing lower than wasting away at `Here' is working for Versailles' sister publication company, Federated Magazines, which puts out magazines for boy group-obsessed teens -- `Teen Time' -- gun enthusiasts -- `Bullet and Barrel' -- and people waiting in salons to get a haircut -- `Dos (ph).' They're in another building, and I think that building might be in another city. Nobody ever talks about them. It's a superstition. I don't even want to mention them.

"My boss at `Here' was a 60-year-old Frenchwoman named Jeanne LeClerq. She had painted-on yellow eyebrows that resembled the McDonald's arches. At `Here,' I did -- things. I read things, opened things, wrote little things, passed things along, and collected the biggest paychecks I'd ever seen up to them. `Here,' though, is where you either begin or end up. But being transferred there is so ignominious that usually you just quit instead. It's like being a baseball manager for 20 years and then finding yourself a first base coach."

GROSS: That's Ted Heller reading from his new novel, "Slab Rat."

Now, what jobs have you actually had at magazines?

HELLER: Well, let's see. I started at "Spy" magazine, and I was brought in there not permanently. Do you remember -- I don't know if you remember the "Andy Warhol Diaries"? It was -- that's what it was, it was Andy Warhol's diaries, and they were very gossipy. As a matter of fact, that's the only thing they were. But they did not have an index, and there were hundreds and hundreds of names there.

So they needed people to just read the book many times over, and every single time a famous name was mentioned, to write it down and write, you know, why that person was being mentioned. And that was my first job in magazines. So I would write things like, "Halston, cocaine use of," things like that.

GROSS: (laughs)

HELLER: But, I mean, dozens and dozens of things like that. So that was my first job. And then after that, I got work at "Spy" magazine, and I don't know if you remember Separated at Birth?

GROSS: Yes, that was very funny. Describe it.

HELLER: OK. Well, you took two famous people who resembled each other and paired them up. And so I did that for a couple of years. And I still have residual aftereffects of it. Whenever I see a picture of Jeff Bridges, I think of -- there's an Iranian cleric named -- I don't know his first name, and I wouldn't be able to pronounce it if I did, but his last name is Rafsanjani. And whenever I see Rafsanjani, I think of Jeff Bridges, and vice versa.

GROSS: What's the closest you came to working at a magazine like "It" magazine?

HELLER: Well, I worked with "Spy" for maybe three or four years, and then I was laid off, with other people. I don't really know the order of magazines that I worked at, but I did work at "Vanity Fair" for two weeks. I was filling in for somebody, and I worked in the photo department, and I basically returned photos. It was entirely a clerical job. Tina Brown was the editor in chief at that time, not Graydon Carter (ph), who's the editor in chief now.

And I just remember walking the hallways, and nobody acknowledging my existence, nobody saying hello or anything like that.

GROSS: Now, your main character, in order to get his job at the magazine, he fakes his resume, and he even makes up a well-bred past for himself, because he wants to fit into his perception of this world. So he tells people that he's from a wealthy community, and that his father is a brilliant but temperamental architect, when in fact his real father owns a couple of swimming pool supply stores named The Wet Guy.

And I'm wondering why you related to this need to rewrite your life, when in a way, I mean, you already came from a pedigree. You're the son of the writer Joseph Heller, most famous for "Catch-22."

HELLER: There were some things that I did relate to him to, and that was in terms of frustration at his job, but I -- there's really not that much of this book which is too autobiographical.

GROSS: When you were growing up, and when you were first starting to work, how did you feel about it when people would find out who your father was?

HELLER: The weird thing is, it often happens that people found out about it before I met them. For instance, I found out recently that the job interview I had at "Nickelodeon" magazine, where I work now, the woman -- I only found this out recently -- had been told who my father was before I even had the interview. So things like that happen, and it's a little disconcerting, and I -- you know, after 43 years, my -- I now know to keep my antenna up most of the time.

GROSS: What's disconcerting about it?

HELLER: Just the fact that it's like I sort of have a reputation, but it's not even my reputation.

GROSS: (laughs) Right, right. Now, you're 43 now, first novel just published. It's kind of late for a first novel.

HELLER: Well, it's the first published novel. You should see what I've got underneath my bed, other than the dust bunnies. There are lots of books, plays, movies there. So I tried.

GROSS: Did you ever got so discouraged that you were threatening to permanently give up?

HELLER: Well, by the time I started writing "Slab Rat," I -- the weird thing was, I had given up. When I was writing this, I had no thought that this book would ever get published. I was really writing for me. And if this hadn't gotten published, I would have written another book, and I would have written that one for me. And by this time, by the time that I finished "Slab Rat," I contacted agents, you know, sending query letters to them, almost on a lark, thinking, Well, maybe this one will get published.

And it did, and I'm still in a state of shock.

GROSS: My guest is Ted Heller, author of the new novel "Slab Rat." We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Ted Heller, and his new novel, "Slab Rat," is a satire of the magazine world.

So let's talk about some of the day jobs that you had over the years. You worked in the garment district for a while?

HELLER: I -- yes, I did. That...

GROSS: What did you do there?

HELLER: I did anything that anyone asked me to. I -- let's see, I pushed racks full of clothing, I unloaded trucks, I loaded trucks, I did shelving, which is taking the clothing out of boxes and put them on the shelves by size and color, that kind of stuff. And I liked the job. My best friend was my boss, as a matter of fact, that's how I got the job. He was the warehouse manager. And I just -- I worked with -- I liked the people I worked with. It was totally stress-free. I really enjoyed it.

GROSS: Now, a lot of people get their identities, or at least partially get their identities, from their work. And you were doing work that you were doing to tide you over while you tried to write. Did that affect your sense of who you were?

HELLER: Well, I -- when I was working in the clothing business, I was just -- you know, I was not really trying to write, until I saw the play "Glen Garry, Glen Ross." And I saw that on a date, and I remember the next day -- I -- it just -- I just loved the play, and the next day I told my boss, "You got to go see this play." He went. I don't know if he went on a date, though, he might have gone alone. And we just turned on our word processor. And this was a while ago, so they don't -- the word processors don't look like they do today.

We just started writing a play. And that was, like, the first real writing that I had ever done. And somehow, I don't know how, but the play got a workshop production in Los Angeles. So when I was -- that was really when I started writing.

GROSS: So if it wasn't for that, you wouldn't have started.

HELLER: I owe it all to David Mamet. It's very strange, because a couple of weeks ago, I was at my job, I was on the floor, and I had -- there were hundreds and hundreds of 35-millimeter slides, and I'm sorting them and doing this and that with them. And the phone rang, and I picked it up, and it was Gregory Mosher (ph), who directed "Glen Garry, Glen Ross." He had read "Slab Rat," and he was calling me because liked it so much. And we just started doing lines from "Glen Garry, Glen Ross" to each other over the phone.

And it was kind of sad, because then I had to say goodbye, and then I was back on the floor and I was sorting through pictures of the Backstreet Boys and In Synch again.

GROSS: (laughs) For your magazine.

HELLER: Yes.

GROSS: (laughs) Yes, and we should say that "Glen Garry, Glen Ross," it's a play by David Mamet about guys who work for this kind of scam real estate company that sells, like, bad real estate to unknowing people by phone, and they try to pass it off as this wonderful, wonderful economic opportunity.

What was your take on that? I mean, what -- how did your play connect to that subject?

HELLER: It was really the language that they were using. That's what staggered me, because for months and months, my friend and I, we would just do dialogue to each other like that, imitating people who worked in the clothing business, you know, the older Jewish men, the younger black men, Hispanic men, the Italian people. We just would just do that with each other all the time.

And then we saw that, Hey, you can do this and get paid for it, and win a Tony for it. So we thought, OK, let's give this a try.

GROSS: Do you remember some of the lines for your play?

HELLER: (laughs) You embarrass me, Terry. I tell you...

GROSS: That's what they pay me the big bucks for.

HELLER: OK, all right. This is why I do not understand why this play -- I don't even understand why anyone read more than four pages of it, because the first three pages were just two Jewish guys in their '70s arguing who is a better ball player, Willie Mays and Ty Cobb. And they just -- I think the first three pages were just, if you read it, it would be, like, "Mays." Pause. "Cobb." Long pause.

We had also been reading a lot of Harold Pinter then, so I think there were more pauses than words on the first couple of pages. And I am baffled by the fact that anybody actually read more than that.

GROSS: Did your father encourage you to write?

HELLER: There was never any pressure at all, none whatsoever. I remember when I told him about that play, as a matter of fact -- the name of that play was "Damaged Goods" -- he was shocked, because I had never told him that I, you know, had been trying to write. He was pleasantly shocked, I'll add.

GROSS: Are you sorry that he didn't live to actually see the book's publication?

HELLER: That is perhaps the most -- it's the most unfair thing that has ever happened to me. He died on December 12, and I think two weeks later, a messenger came to me at work and delivered the book to me, and that was just -- you know, I don't -- I'm not married, I don't have any kids, so this was, like, maybe the biggest moment in my life, and I couldn't tell him about it. That was very bad.

GROSS: Yes. You know, your novel satirizes the magazine world, many magazines, and now I imagine you're being written up in some of those magazines. So what's the experience like of being praised in magazines that you've satirized in the book that you're being praised for in those magazines?

HELLER: I remember when I told my ex-girlfriend that I was going to be photographed by "Vanity Fair," and I think she said, "Haven't they read the book?" And that was sort of...

GROSS: (laughs)

HELLER: ... my attitude too, like, I couldn't believe that they were doing that.

GROSS: Ted Heller. He's the author of the new novel "Slab Rat."

FRESH AIR's senior producer today was Roberta Shorrock. Our interviews and reviews are produced by Naomi Person, Amy Salit, and Phyllis Myers, with Monique Nazareth, Ann Marie Baldonado, and Patty Leswing, research assistance from Brendan Noonam. Sue Spolen (ph) directed the show.

I'm Terry Gross.

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia, PA
Guest: Ted Heller
High: Writer Ted Heller's new book is "Slab Rat." Heller was responsible for the famous "Separated at Birth" feature in "Spy" Magazine, a concept that has lived on long after the publication. His new book is a satire about a magazine staffer who will do just about anything to get ahead. Heller has also worked at a number of magazines, including "Details," "Premiere" and "Vanity Fair."
Spec: Ted Heller; "Slab Rat"; Entertainment

Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 2000 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 2000 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Interview With Ted Heller
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.